Pricing for Concrete Wall Mural

[JJGraphics]

I have a customer asking me for a 540 sq ft mural on an indoor painted cinder block wall. The Mural is 9' high and 60' wide and starts 7 ' up in the air (above door lines).

I know I'll need a genie lift for the install and the 3m heated roller (TSA 4) looks like the best way to heat and press.

I've watched the 3M videos on application of this material and they quote a rate of 75 sq ft per hour for the heating and rolling, but I figure the total install is probably closer to 50 sq ft per hour when you count the time to tape up the graphic, peel the backing, pat it into place and cut around objects like conduit, smoke detectors, etc.

I'm calculating somewhere around $9 per sq ft for graphics and install but I've never done something of this scope before.

What would you charge for a project like this?

Thanks!

 

[Gino]

Can't believe you got a picture of a guy pulling his pants up......................

Does it hafta be vinyl on the wall or can it be a solid piece of material fastened to the wall ??

 

[JJGraphics]

Can't believe you got a picture of a guy pulling his pants up......................

I'm having to do that a bunch right now (pull my pants up) because I'm 18 weeks in with a personal trainer and I'm shedding weight but I'm no where near my goal yet. If I bought new pants now I'd be buying more every 2 months so I just tighten the belt for now!

This is only 1 of 3 murals they want (all roughly the same size) and they want it to look like painted brick, so textured wall vinyl it is.

 

[signage]

have you done any yourself, or just watching video's of someone else doing it?

I would do a section of wall in my shop to get a gauge and not ask other what they would charge, what takes me a few minuets may to you 1/2 hr to an hour.

 

[MikePro]

you'll definitely want the roller, not just the TSA4 for the "flat" portions, but the VCAT roller as well for the mortar lines.
expensive, yes, but crucial for proper mortar line contouring. If you don't get a good heat&roll into the mortar lines, they will start lifting the day after your install.

and your pricing seems about right, but equipment rental should not be covered in that.

 

[greysquirrel]

I would use panoflex walk and wall and call it a day

 

[Modern Ink Signs]

You said you calculated your graphics @ $9/sq

540 total sq.ft. @ 50 sq.ft. (Which is pretty accurate given factors). So call it 11 hours of install time

math.....(assuming a $100/hr shop rate)
540 x 9 = $4860 (material)
11 x $100 = $1100 (labor)

$4860 + $1100 = $5960
Plus lift rental (if needed)

In my opinion given this calculation your pricing if ok

Since you have not done this type of install before, practice. If you don’t have the correct heat gun, roller, etc. there is a nice kit you can purchase that has the heat gun and all the various rollers. TSA Kit and it is about $650(ish)

Also I’m assuming you are using 3M 480 and 8548G/8550M

 

[jawdavis]

I would use panoflex walk and wall and call it a day

As primarily a mural printer/installer, I second this. Make sure to heat and roll the edges and overlaps of all the panels and you'll be fine. With a lift, one man can install that in half a day if he's experienced. No need to heat and roll into every single mortar joint either.
You could also print on a Commercial Type II vinyl material and have a wallpaper hanger do it with paste. Again, no mortar joints and you can sub the install to a pro. This way you stay in your shop making money and selling other jobs while he's out installing. Nice thing with wallpaper guys is they're not out there on the job trying to undercut you and steal your business.
I've done more jobs like this at schools/gyms than I could possibly count and when 3-5 years go by and a new principal or someone wants to change the mural, with Walk and Wall you can do the removal in an hour or 2, versus trying to remove 540sqft of 3M textured wall wrap...that's a hard nope for me.

 

[JJGraphics]

You said you calculated your graphics @ $9/sq

540 total sq.ft. @ 50 sq.ft. (Which is pretty accurate given factors). So call it 11 hours of install time

math.....(assuming a $100/hr shop rate)
540 x 9 = $4860 (material)
11 x $100 = $1100 (labor)

$4860 + $1100 = $5960
Plus lift rental (if needed)

In my opinion given this calculation your pricing if ok

Since you have not done this type of install before, practice. If you don’t have the correct heat gun, roller, etc. there is a nice kit you can purchase that has the heat gun and all the various rollers. TSA Kit and it is about $650(ish)

Also I’m assuming you are using 3M 480 and 8548G/8550M

Great information! Thanks so much! My supplier suggested the Mactac rough rap wall wrapping vinyl and matching laminate for this job.

 

[Jester1167]

Painted Concrete is a lot easier than brick. Even then, you're going to wear yourself pushing against the wall and holding the TSA 4 up with the heat gun. Charge for the pain, nothing less than $3 a square plus travel and lift.

Before you even print make sure the paint is compatible with vinyl. There are lots of fancy paints that are low VOC and cleanable that vinyl won't stick to. If your masking tape won't hold a panel up, your vinyl will pop up in the mortar joints even if you do a perfect job.

I have installed walls like this with a cheap 4" foam roller. Just make sure you get a 6 pack of extra rollers because you'll burn one every 100 sqft or so. I think I like the TSA-4 slightly better but the cost was hard to stomach. The foam rollers work just well because how hot you get the vinyl is more important than the tool you use to push it in. The vinyl gets as soft as butter and the adhesive becomes liquid. All the roller has to do is conform to the surface. The special laminate is the key to the process because it thermoforms to the shape of the wall when it cools.

There are a couple of keys to this type of installation. Do not squeegee before you heat and roll. You will trap air that will blow up like a balloon and pop leaving discoloration. I lightly tack the panels with a gloved hand while checking my alignment before I heat and roll. If you need to shrink a panel for alignment you can press the vinyl into the horizontal grout lines to dump extra vinyl.

How hot you get the vinyl and how fast you travel is key. You literally travel about 1 to 3 inches a second. The hotter your heat gun the faster you can go.

One last tip, start or finish with the horizontal grout line on the edge of your roller and make the grout line your main focus.

 

[JJGraphics]

As primarily a mural printer/installer, I second this. Make sure to heat and roll the edges and overlaps of all the panels and you'll be fine. With a lift, one man can install that in half a day if he's experienced. No need to heat and roll into every single mortar joint either.
You could also print on a Commercial Type II vinyl material and have a wallpaper hanger do it with paste. Again, no mortar joints and you can sub the install to a pro. This way you stay in your shop making money and selling other jobs while he's out installing. Nice thing with wallpaper guys is they're not out there on the job trying to undercut you and steal your business.
I've done more jobs like this at schools/gyms than I could possibly count and when 3-5 years go by and a new principal or someone wants to change the mural, with Walk and Wall you can do the removal in an hour or 2, versus trying to remove 540sqft of 3M textured wall wrap...that's a hard nope for me.

I have a sample of the walk and wall and it's interesting stuff! I typically do a 1" overlap on wall graphics. Is that adequate for a project like this? Also, you said you heat the edges and overlap. What kind of heat and time do you use? Have customers ever questioned the texture of the walk and wall when used for a wall mural? Thanks!

 

[Reveal1]

As primarily a mural printer/installer, I second this. Make sure to heat and roll the edges and overlaps of all the panels and you'll be fine. With a lift, one man can install that in half a day if he's experienced. No need to heat and roll into every single mortar joint either.
You could also print on a Commercial Type II vinyl material and have a wallpaper hanger do it with paste. Again, no mortar joints and you can sub the install to a pro. This way you stay in your shop making money and selling other jobs while he's out installing. Nice thing with wallpaper guys is they're not out there on the job trying to undercut you and steal your business.
I've done more jobs like this at schools/gyms than I could possibly count and when 3-5 years go by and a new principal or someone wants to change the mural, with Walk and Wall you can do the removal in an hour or 2, versus trying to remove 540sqft of 3M textured wall wrap...that's a hard nope for me.

Have you used walk and wall at ground level on painted block wall? Wondering how it holds up as I've been seeing several failed installations from competitors where the vinyl is torn at mortar joints that have been bridged instead of conformed to joint - in fact I'm being asked to bid partially because of the problems. These would be semi-permanent such as weight room, hallway in event center etc with high traffic. Interested in your recommendation for this type application.

 

[jawdavis]

The only issues I've seen with the Walk N Wall is where it can eventually peel apart at the seams and at the edges if not heated and rolled properly. You don't need to heat it up and melt it into the joints like a textured wall wrap vinyl, but just enough to get the adhesive to wet out a little bit. There is a woven fabric base layer to the Walk N Wall, so it won't fail and crack like the other products, but it's not conformable like the others either. We do 3/4"-1" overlaps usually, and a little wider certainly won't hurt.
Have customers questioned using that product? Not really, because they trust us to provide the best product at a reasonable price. Reasonable price is all relative of course, but the 3M wall wrap is going to cost our customer about 2x as much as the Walk n Wall to print and install. It may be a better product with a longer lifespan, but at the end of the day, is it worth twice the price to the customer when they have the same image on the wall? The answer is usually no for most of our jobs.
Also to note, we typically liquid laminate, either before or after installation with Clearshield or Dreamguard Protex.

 

[Reveal1]

The only issues I've seen with the Walk N Wall is where it can eventually peel apart at the seams and at the edges if not heated and rolled properly. You don't need to heat it up and melt it into the joints like a textured wall wrap vinyl, but just enough to get the adhesive to wet out a little bit. There is a woven fabric base layer to the Walk N Wall, so it won't fail and crack like the other products, but it's not conformable like the others either. We do 3/4"-1" overlaps usually, and a little wider certainly won't hurt.
Have customers questioned using that product? Not really, because they trust us to provide the best product at a reasonable price. Reasonable price is all relative of course, but the 3M wall wrap is going to cost our customer about 2x as much as the Walk n Wall to print and install. It may be a better product with a longer lifespan, but at the end of the day, is it worth twice the price to the customer when they have the same image on the wall? The answer is usually no for most of our jobs.
Also to note, we typically liquid laminate, either before or after installation with Clearshield or Dreamguard Protex.

Hey jawdavis (or anyone else with walk N Wall experience). We just got that job for painted concrete block (COVID delay) and are planning to do this with walk N wall. Customer preferred the look over a cast wall film with or gloss finish. Just curious about the seams. Most vinyl materials we seam 3/4" overlap but wondered if butting this might work instead given the more stable backer - concerned about the thickness of the seam. Also, you mentioned liquid laminate; was that in reference to the 3M product or Walk N Wall? We film laminate almost all of our long-term conventional vinyl wall wraps (mostly 40c w/ matte lam) , but were thinking that no liquid lamination would be needed on Walk N Wall based on our experience using it as a floor graphic. Pretty tough stuff when printed w/ latex.

 

[Eforcer]

I would be at $12 a sq ft. $15 Installed But this is NY

 

[jawdavis]

In the last 6-8 months, I've decided to basically quit selling the Walk n Wall for textured wall wraps, and I apologize if anyone sold a job specifically on what I'd said. I've been using the product for many years, but it seems only the ones I've installed in the last 12-18 months have failed earlier than I thought they should have. This is always at the seams and the edges and only on challenging/textured surfaces like concrete block, stucco types, etc. I'm not sure if the adhesive has changed at all, or if it has to do more with more surfaces now have lower VOC paints on them, but we're back to using a pasted product for these areas.

 

[Geneva Olson]

SO, I'm not sure if anyone has commented on this before, but when I was a school teacher, they painted that brick every 2 years or so. There are many MANY layers of paint on that brick. You might want to check and see if it will stick and not fall off. I literally put a 3m command strip on the wall to hold a ruler on. That command strip came off the wall and took about 6 inches of paint with it.