print the colors you are seeing on the screen

[bob]

What "Earth" are you from Bob? I can't help but think it's the "flat" one.

Dan

When you have no argument the only thing left to you is the old tried ad true ad hominem fallacy. You skip right past a host of other formal fallacies and jump right to the most unimaginative.

 

[Terremoto]

Did it ever occur to you that I might feel as I do because I do understand color management?

No it didn't! The first thing that came to mind Bob was, "This bonehead doesn't have a clue about color management."

If I should ever need the services of an actual genuine authority, which as yet has never been necessary, a couple of guys with whom I used to work are packing Phd's in areas dealing with digital color.

You should seriously consider having a beer or two with your "Digital Color Doctor" buddies. There's a slim chance you may learn a thing or two about color management. Maybe, just maybe you'll come to the realization that your evangelizing of color mismanagement is nothing more than the manifestation of your ignorance of color management. You're flogging a dead horse and your roses need water.

Dan

 

[scuba_steve2699]

When you have no argument the only thing left to you is the old tried ad true ad hominem fallacy. You skip right past a host of other formal fallacies and jump right to the most unimaginative.

I am not a huge contributor to this forum and will probably get slammed for this but really Bob? Do you just sit around and wait for an opportunity to show how verbose and powerful you are?

Proper color profiling has been shown throughout the industry as the most efficient way to produce consistent results. If it did not, then we wouldn't have companies such as Xrite providing so many products and services.

Your method of matching colors does work for the most part. IF you are using vector graphics. If the print was a raster file, all bets are off. I use both methods in my shop and teach both methods to the industry. I have at least 5 requests a week for end users trying to match specific colors and I routinely send them to a color chart that can be printed from their RIP program to use as a guide. I say guide because that is all it is, a simple approach to getting close to what you want. I do not have the time to lead them through color theory, color management, and proper profiling. I can help them get close though.

These same people will at some time want to understand better what is going on with color and how to properly get a handle on what is coming out of their printer in order to streamline the process and get consistent results across any graphic format they use. This is when they attend a class, research it a bit more, get the right equipment, and set their shop up for a better workflow.

Neither process is an all in one answer for every shop but if you want consistent results, then proper color management procedures and profiling is a must.

Or in Bob speak - "the sacrosanctness of color must be preserved through a scientific process and procedure. The hypothetical Elysian field of true color cannot be attained via neanderthal like processes of simply pointing and shooting."

Let the flaming begin.

 

[Move In Media]

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Just get a mac pro and illustrator. Right out of the box it shows almost exactly the same color.

 

[bob]

...
Proper color profiling has been shown throughout the industry as the most efficient way to produce consistent results. If it did not, then we wouldn't have companies such as Xrite providing so many products and services...

Your conclusion is not supported by your premise. Did the efficacy of color profiling foment organizations such as Xrite et al or did the organizations compel color management and all of the arguments, such as they are, for it?

In other words, do you call the fruit an orange because it's color is orange or is the color called orange because you call the fruit an orange?

What you say may be true but your exposition does not support your position.

...Your method of matching colors does work for the most part. IF you are using vector graphics. If the print was a raster file, all bets are off...

Perhaps, but the vast majority of files that I print are bitmaps.

Generally I find it more pleasing to design something in Corel and, rather than going through a number of unneeded steps to get it into Flexi, I just export it full size as an RGB jpg, bring it directly into Production Manager, and print it with the bitmap rendering intent set to 'Perceptual'.

For these bitmap files, invariably what I see is what I get.

I do admit to having a profile which sees to this. A single profile. The slight variations from media to media, mostly imperceptible to the point of subjectivity, do not perturb me. Or my clients. I have another profile for printing on poster paper, crafted to not lay down so much ink as the absorbent qualities of the paper are somewhat less than optimum. In both of these profiles every rendering intent except for bitmaps is set to 'No Color Correction. Bitmap is set to 'Perceptual' as previously noted.

Works for me.

 

[Gino]

I'm not sure what side of the fence I'm on, but I think color calibration is only necessary if one has the equipment that will use it and not lose it and you never rely on outside files. In other words, you only create from scratch and never import a blessed thing.

Years ago, I think it was far easier to say color calibration is a necessary evil.... one must do, but after doing this for years.... I think not.


We have a system called CATZper and it works great.

For just about everything, we've managed with color charts and all kinds of other quirky methods of reproducing dead balls on color matches.

The major problem with color calibration is so simple, you guys wasting money calibrating can't fight this one.

Your customer sets this stuff up on their computer and says this color is this and that one that and so on down the line..... or their graphics department does it on their calibrated system and send you the files. Now you're instructed on what to use. You do it and they call you up telling you the colors are all wrong. How can that be ?? We all used calibrated systems, but are theirs calibrated to your monitors or your printers or your printer profiles for a particular media ?? Probably not.

Last bit of information. According to the slant of your monitor, the height you sit at......... the colors change constantly. If someone calibrates the system, how do you know you're where you want to be, unless you are 100% where the eyes of the person calibrating were ??

 

[scuba_steve2699]

Your conclusion is not supported by your premise. Did the efficacy of color profiling foment organizations such as Xrite et al or did the organizations compel color management and all of the arguments, such as they are, for it?

In other words, do you call the fruit an orange because it's color is orange or is the color called orange because you call the fruit an orange?

What you say may be true but your exposition does not support your position.

Actually Bob, it is an easy one to support - the CIE http://www.cie.co.at/ is an organization that developed what we now use as color management theory and basics and is the controlling organization for ICC - which I am sure my grossly verbose friend you are well aware of. They were organized and started this back in 1913 at which time Xrite did not exist - they were founded in 1958. The company evolved into what it is now due to the demand from industries needing these types of services. Your argument on the orange is one better suited for a philosophy course, but again, I am sure you know that as well.

Perhaps, but the vast majority of files that I print are bitmaps.

Generally I find it more pleasing to design something in Corel and, rather than going through a number of unneeded steps to get it into Flexi, I just export it full size as an RGB jpg, bring it directly into Production Manager, and print it with the bitmap rendering intent set to 'Perceptual'.

For these bitmap files, invariably what I see is what I get.

I do admit to having a profile which sees to this. A single profile. The slight variations from media to media, mostly imperceptible to the point of subjectivity, do not perturb me. Or my clients. I have another profile for printing on poster paper, crafted to not lay down so much ink as the absorbent qualities of the paper are somewhat less than optimum. In both of these profiles every rendering intent except for bitmaps is set to 'No Color Correction. Bitmap is set to 'Perceptual' as previously noted.

Works for me.

So perceptual is the only one you use huh? I am sure then that you are an expert on this rendering intent and know how and why it shifts colors and apply these concepts to every job you run. Not necessarily a bad way to do things but it can give you some serious shifting of colors say if your client provided a graphic in Adobe RGB 1998 and then you have a perceptual shift to SWOP CMYK that reduces all colors in gamut as well and can shift the white point in doing this. I can run numerous prints and demonstrate this for you if you wish to come on out. Just because it does not perturb you does not mean that it is the way for everyone to go.

 

[Baz]

Anybody arguing that there is only one good method to recreating a frikin' print is full of themselves (you know who you are).

 

[SightLine]

mac monitors are already calibrated.....if your running PC then you need monitors that have IPS (In Plane Switching)

Mac monitors are already calibrated?? Calibrated to what, by what? Not saying your are wrong but I dont see how that could be possible unless you buy the monitor with the printer, computer, and software it will be using all at the same time and a dealer calibrated everything as part of a package deal and did the calibrations in your shop where it is setup.

I do get that IPS monitors are orders of magnitude better than most other types of panels. I have a top of line NEC one, it has a multitude of calibration options and there are many standards with which things can be calibrated to. The color temperature of the lighting in your enviorment also greatly affects how colors look on your screen and in the general area.

As already gone over much in the thread though, actually getting everything in calibration with each other is not a simple task. We have an Eye One Pro. Our method is first of all we create all of our own color profiles for our Mimaki, we do not use any canned profiles, nor do we use OEM ink. Since the Mimaki is the ultimate end output for the majority of what we do, the profiles and color range from that serve as what we strive to have as the basis to calibrate our monitors to..... Still a lot more to it but I have it pretty darn close to WYSIWYG. I'm not sure that it is possible to have it perfect matching for everything all the time.

In the end though, our reasons for calibrating the way we do is to maximize the color range our printer can produce and to have accurate Pantone Charts for each of the media we generally print on. That being said, the Pantone chart we make for a particular media does NOT necessarily match the actual Pantone colors. It does however give us a basis to match to an actual Pantone Color Fan and select the closest match we can. In other words the customer might spec 186C. We comparing 186C in the Pantone book to our own Pantone chart, we might sub 1797C since what our printer prints for 1797C actually matches Pantone 186C dead on.

 

[HulkSmash]

I am not a huge contributor to this forum and will probably get slammed for this but really Bob? Do you just sit around and wait for an opportunity to show how verbose and powerful you are?

Proper color profiling has been shown throughout the industry as the most efficient way to produce consistent results. If it did not, then we wouldn't have companies such as Xrite providing so many products and services.

Your method of matching colors does work for the most part. IF you are using vector graphics. If the print was a raster file, all bets are off. I use both methods in my shop and teach both methods to the industry. I have at least 5 requests a week for end users trying to match specific colors and I routinely send them to a color chart that can be printed from their RIP program to use as a guide. I say guide because that is all it is, a simple approach to getting close to what you want. I do not have the time to lead them through color theory, color management, and proper profiling. I can help them get close though.

These same people will at some time want to understand better what is going on with color and how to properly get a handle on what is coming out of their printer in order to streamline the process and get consistent results across any graphic format they use. This is when they attend a class, research it a bit more, get the right equipment, and set their shop up for a better workflow.

Neither process is an all in one answer for every shop but if you want consistent results, then proper color management procedures and profiling is a must.

Or in Bob speak - "the sacrosanctness of color must be preserved through a scientific process and procedure. The hypothetical Elysian field of true color cannot be attained via neanderthal like processes of simply pointing and shooting."

Let the flaming begin.

Good Post Steve, I agree with you 100%. Bobs method is very flat. It work with a small range of print forms. We have a color chart printed above our old printer that shows how certain pantone colors will print. But we're not always privileged with vector files...


and Bitmaps? Who the hell prints in bitmaps?

 

[scuba_steve2699]