Printer Opinions Wanted

[SellersSign&Design]

This site has helped me with about every sign related problem I've had in the last couple years, so now that I have a big decision ahead of me I figured I would try to absorb some more knowledge! This isn't the same old "which printer should I buy" thread, but I am possibly in need of a printer. I've had my L25500 for almost a year and a half, and it's been a money maker for me no doubt. But, it has become an absolute nightmare to keep running. I've replaced printheads, cables and the carriage PC board due to "replace head" errors. It ran for a while, then my colors went haywire (possibly a Flexi problem). I got that fixed, it ran a few days, and then my old friend the "replace printhead" error showed back up. It finally accepted the head and went back to printing, then the black dropped out completely. Now all signs are pointing towards a faulty trailing cable, which is $800-$1500 depending on where you buy it, with no guarantee it will fix it. So I'm at a point where I think I have no choice but to get another printer. I thought about ordering the cable and hoping it fixes it and gets me through the backlog of jobs I have lined up, but that's risky. So now.. do I buy new, or used again? Stick with latex, or go another route? Right now my equipment is paid for, so the thought of owing $10-15k on a printer scares me to say the least. I print 2-3 days a week at the most, and the printer sometimes sits for a week or more without doing anything. I also print, laminate and contour cut all in one day. For all those reasons, I feel like I'm tied to latex. So I've been looking at the 110 and the 315. I don't see why the 110 wouldn't do what I need it to, but maybe the 315 is a better choice. I know this got long winded, but I guess I'm just looking for words of wisdom from my friends on here that have helped me in the past and been through the same "growing pains" I'm experiencing.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

I'd say stick with Latex but I'm biased. Dependant on your budget there are other suitable printers out there but dollar for dollar the Latex line is hard to beat.

New 110s can be had for sub $8,000 and adding the take up is only $1200. Cost of operation sucks though.

 

[FatCat]

Not to thread hi-jack, but threads like these are the reason I still give pause to latex. On paper, it seems like the cats meow, but in reality I wonder how well it all translates into making money and not being a maintenance nightmare. I can say Ive used nothing but eco-solvent in my business since 2009, and while it isn't perfect Ive only replaced 1 head in the 5 printers we have owned in that time - and that was mainly because we bought that printer used and the head had issues to begin with. We currently have a 2 year old 1624 and a 1 year old 1624x both which run 4-8 hours every day, 5 days a week. Other than cleaning and the occasional consumables like wiper blades and spittoon pads I haven't had to put a dime in them. I really hope the new latex machines have upped their game - I still hear grumbling about color inconsistencies and consumables being costly and frequently replaced, so I'd love to see real world numbers from those that have run them for more than a year or two...

 

[ExecuPrintGS]

Ive seen your issues on the FB HP group and it sucks what you are going through.

As far as the HPs/ latex printers go, we switched to the 360 about 6 months ago. The printer and new graphtec we bought with it were paid off within 2 months. My increased productivity of having the prints instantly cured has saved me so much in production and gotten us out of a bind more times than i care to admit. I don't think i could go back to a solvent.

Not much help for you on your dilemma, but i do think the latex is the way to go these days. Customers are demanding quicker and quicker turn around times, solvent just doesn't allow for that. Just my $0.02

 

[Peter E]

Sorry to hear about your issues on the L25500. The most straight forward answer to your choice between the 110 and 315 would be productivity and cost of operation. The 110 uses a smaller volume of ink cartridges (400ml), so you'd probably be buying ink more frequently. The ink cost per square foot is around $0.27 on the 110 which isn't bad but not great either. The price of the machine is a little bit less than the 315. With the 315 you'd get OMAS with the printer and you'd also get 775ml ink cartridges which would drop your ink cost to $0.21 psf. It doesn't seem like a lot but it does add up over a period of time. With competitive pricing, you could get a 315 for sub 10k or right about the 10k mark.

Sticking with Latex makes sense, as you are familiar with the technology and the instant cure is definitely a productivity boosting feature.

 

[bulldozer]

I started with eco-sol at my old job, but we use latex at my new job. these machines are not made for production. i call them garage sticker printers.
it is slow to load/turn on
i hate that both the take-up and media roll have to be on a spindle, but thats more of a personal preference.
cancelling jobs is super slow due to it having to dry
the closed feed system is garbage. if a corner of the material is wrinkled even slightly it will get stuck and crumple.
no reservoir for end of ink (our 360's at least) so if you step away and it runs out of ink, it will cancel the job within a certain amount of time.
the closed heating unit (depending on the material) more often than not forces you to pre-feed about 6-12 inches before sending a job or it will hit the heater. the only saving grace is there isn't much training time for new hires since it is a made-for-dummies machine.

 

[Peter E]

I started with eco-sol at my old job, but we use latex at my new job. these machines are not made for production. i call them garage sticker printers.
it is slow to load/turn on
i hate that both the take-up and media roll have to be on a spindle, but thats more of a personal preference.
cancelling jobs is super slow due to it having to dry
the closed feed system is garbage. if a corner of the material is wrinkled even slightly it will get stuck and crumple.
no reservoir for end of ink (our 360's at least) so if you step away and it runs out of ink, it will cancel the job within a certain amount of time.
the closed heating unit (depending on the material) more often than not forces you to pre-feed about 6-12 inches before sending a job or it will hit the heater. the only saving grace is there isn't much training time for new hires since it is a made-for-dummies machine.

I have been using the 365 for the last 4 months and I don't have any problems with it. It does have it's quirks but having the instant dry feature is a must for me. I also like the user replaceable printheads but that's neither here or there. The original poster sounded like they wanted to stick with Latex and my OP was in response to that. I don't like solvent machines because of the time needed for curing.

 

[Signed Out]

If you are only printing 2-3 days per week, do you really need to laminate and cut the same day you print? I'd look for a used roland pro 3, they are built like a tank and can be had for pretty cheap.

 

[bulldozer]

I have been using the 365 for the last 4 months and I don't have any problems with it. It does have it's quirks but having the instant dry feature is a must for me. I also like the user replaceable printheads but that's neither here or there. The original poster sounded like they wanted to stick with Latex and my OP was in response to that. I don't like solvent machines because of the time needed for curing.

i was a firm believer in the out gassing process, but that diminished for the most part due to constantly doing wraps without letting it cure, and never had an issue. sales people would tell their customers we could have a wrap printed and installed in a day. we never had one come back with issues for 3-4 years of doing that.

btw, not in response to you, but i wanted to add that the whole 'scratch resistance' marketing ploy is exactly that. to say latex is scratch resistant is laughable.

 

[Dennis422]

I had L25500 before, same thing, bought it used and had it for a bit over 2 years.
No major issues, changed a few print heads and had in issue with a material sensor which I accidentally broke.
I switched to L330 last July and I can tell you it is night and day difference. Print quality is much better, it prints faster, and with no issues so far.
Uses a lot less ink too.
I printed many decals, did 5 wraps, and did 60-70 4'x10' (and many smaller ones) truck decals and I used a bit more than a half the ink that came with the printer
For me, there is not other option but the latex.

 

[danno]

My 2 cents. We have latex, aqueous, uv and eco-solvent in our shop. We prefer the eco-solvent machine over the others. It is a Seiko M-64. Not to say that latex doesn't have it's place. For your application, I would probably agree with sticking with latex. You are familiar with the characteristics. I would take some media and some print files and test the machines you are looking to purchase. Use the default profiles recommended by the manufacture and get a feel for each machine and it's quirks.

 

[jfiscus]

I have to say that I would seriously consider switching. The newer eco-solvents allow you to print and laminate the same day, just not IMMEDIATELY. I can't see why your "regular business model" would involve immediate lamination and that it couldn't wait a couple hours or until tomorrow morning. In emergency cases we do take prints right off our Epsons and laminate them w/o issues but I wouldn't want to do it every time or with every print, and the installers would hate their life if we did.

This shop has been a solvent shop ever since Mimaki first came out with the JV3 printers, and after seeing a latex in action at a couple shows we bought the bullet and added one. YMMV, but the support we received sucked, the warm-up & cool-down period took forever for small prints, and it couldn't print consistently. Not to mention the constantly degrading print heads caused crappy prints w/o warnings. Everyone is so worried about print heads, but we have no issues with regular print heads going bad on our solvent machines... We had our 360 for around 8 months before we sold it for around half of what we paid for it, a couple of those months it mostly sat as we didn't trust it.

After that we went with Epson S70675 eco-solvent printers. Both of ours print VERY close, so we can print on either machine without worry.
And, our last Mimaki (sold the other to another shop, it is also still running w/o issues) is still hanging in there for printing repair panels for old jobs and cranking out banners.
YMMV.

 

[Sign Works]

All I can share is my personal experience with my Roland printers. Roland PC-600 Thermal Resin Printer/Cutter purchased new and in use for 15+ years without any issues whatsoever. Roland SP-300V Eco-Solvent Inkjet Printer/Cutter purchased new and in use for 11+ years without any major issues (one head replacement 3 years ago due to deflected black nozzles from head strikes). This printer sits idle for weeks and even months without any issues, love everything about my Roland printers.

 

[Dallas225]

I dont think you will truly win on any of these new machines.. i spent about 2 months reading professional reviews, and floating around the forums reading peoples loves and hates.. every other printer we considered next to that new latex 365 had far worse "issues" than i could find with these latex machines.. we almost pulled the trigger on a new roland, but every feed i could find said the wasted ink was just insane, or many people having banding problems right off the hop (even people i know around here having both issues and regretting the purchase of the "upgrade")... we have a mimaki JV33 (which i hated from day one), a roland vp540 which has been fantastic but is slower than a dead turtle.. and now this latex - which honestly printed better than ive ever seen, and faster than i thought was even possible off a roll to roll.. but then as you know, we ended up with that trailing cable problem. My new machine is suppose to arrive friday or monday - we'll see how that pans out..

 

[jayhawksigns]

Its a tough decision, and once you've been doing this long enough you are bound to end up making one that you will later wish you hadn't. We've had HP, Colorspan, Mimaki, even a Fargo (lets see who knows what that is) but I feel that for the most part, anything put out today by the big manufacturers will not put out bad prints. Now each brand has their strong points and that is what you have to decide is most important. For me, we will stay with HP for or next printer. I haven't had the color issues (that I've noticed) nor mind the cheap printheads. Being able to immediately process the prints as they come off and the lack of daily or almost any maintenance are some other things I like about the HPs.

We picked up one of the last L25500s before the 26500s came out and will be jumping to a 560 this year. I do think it is easier to stay with what you know though, I know when we jumped to latex at first it was with trepidation because the JV3 we were using was built like a tank.

 

[rjssigns]

Something to think about that no one ever mentions is the DIY aspect of repair. Warranties run out, then what? For any brand of printer look at the parts that are easily available on the internet, and how easy it is to effect the repair. With the help of people like VanderJ, and readily available parts I've managed to keep my 11y.o. Roland crankin'.

How much does an out of warranty service call cost? I know it's 400 bucks just to have a Roland tech show up, then 150 per hour after. Haven't checked into the latex end of things yet, but I'm sure it's comparable.

I've looked at Epson, Roland, Mutoh and HP. I was ready to pull the trigger on a 110 until the client changed the pay schedule of the contract. The 110 would have been paid for with that job, and could have sat until needed. My Roland would stay put as it has it's place.
The 110 would have been used for any long runs. The Roland would be used for my industrial labeling and using every last scrap of material. I still love the way my Roland can load odd size bits of vinyl.

Every printer has it's pros and cons. Choose wisely.

 

[jfiscus]

HPs aren't built to last as long as the older Solvent printers were. They are cheaper though, so just plan for the eventual replacement if you go that route, kinda like a lease.
All out of warranty repairs are going to cost ya dearly, the best bet you can do in any case is to find an independent local tech.
I broke my Latex when it was 1 month old (take up reel plastic pieces) and the "HP tech" who came out (after waiting 3 days with the machine down) told me that he had never previously worked on a latex machine, so even under warranty you can get sucky service.
All current machines should have parts available for purchase for quite a while so that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[jayhawksigns]

All current machines should have parts available for purchase for quite a while so that shouldn't be an issue.

On that note, HP is supposedly going to announce the end of parts for the L25500 sooner then later. If that weighs into trying to keep your L25500 running or not.

 

[SellersSign&Design]

Some great responses here, and a lot for me to think about. I called Grimco today just to get the numbers on the HPs. Basically, a 110 is going to be about $8500 by the time it's in my shop and a 315 would be close to $13k, according to them. Also, the 315 is supposedly backordered until the end of next month, which is a slight issue when my printer is currently broken. I'm going to check with some other dealers because I think those prices are a little high, but maybe I'm wrong? I have considered a Roland, because it seems like a lot of the guys running small businesses like me are running 540s or 300s. I would probably be fine printing and laminating the next day, my biggest concern was heads drying up if it sits for 1 or 2 weeks without printing, but it sounds like that's not so much an issue anymore. I haven't heard that they are going to be discontinuing parts for the L25500s, but I figured it would be coming soon. I'm still tempted to buy that trailing cable and just hope that would get this thing back up and running long enough to get me caught up on the jobs I have pending. That would give me some breathing room to really do my homework on printers before pulling the trigger. But, from what I've heard it could be either the trailing cable or one of the PC boards, so I also don't really want to make an $800 mistake. Decisions decisions.

 

[TDFcustomSL]

FWIW, I just switched from a Mutoh 1204 to a Latex 110. My business is currently just a side business so the printer does sit during slow months for a week or so at a time on occasion. I couldn't be happier with the 110 honestly. I set it up one evening, and that same night i was printing jobs on it. Sure the colors are taking some adjusting to compared to the Mutoh but for me, it has been so much easier to run. The warm up time isn't a huge issue for me because I am not a high volume shop...at all. I honestly don't mind the loading system, or the fact that I have to advance the material 6 inches or so before a print to help prevent and jams. Ill gladly take those over dealing with the Mutoh sometimes. You might check with Advantage Sign and Graphic Supply, as that's where I got mine from and Matt was a huge help. Gans has also been extremely helpful in answering any questions I may have, even tho I didn't purchase the machine from them. I don't think I would ever go back to a solvent printer. I've ran about 20 rolls or so through the 110 since i got it and like i said, i couldn't be happier.