Printing Grey with HP Latex 360

[Wrap Colorado]

Hey guys, always seem to find an answer here to any issues I have before posting, but I’ve been trying to find a reasonable answer to this for over a year, specifically for this fleet I work on.

My setup:
HP Latex 360
Avery MPI 1105/1360
Caldera V12 Mac
Designing in Adobe Illustrator saving to .pdf.

Ive seen some threads on here explaining solutions that go way over my head. Is there an easy explanation to printing neutral CMYK greys with a stock Avery profile based off CMYK values.

Certain formulas? Certain workspace and output profiles in illustrator? Special file format or rip settings to get neutral or even close to neutral? Printing with only black just looks like shit and is really grainy.

I don’t have the money to hire in a professional or waste a bunch of material. I don’t necessarily understand color theory, and I have no experience before a year from now of operating a wide format printer. My life has been a vinyl cutter and screenprinting for years and years. This wrap is always coming out completely different, from me trying to print the same file as before, or adjusting the colors to hit more neutrals. Any help is greatly appreciated. I have 2 box trucks parked outside the shop that need to get done ASAP.

Honestly I have no been a big fan of this printer. Why should I keep it, over any eco solvent like a Mutoh Valuejet.

 

[Bly]

Greys on a 360 should be pretty neutral without too much trouble.
Do a calibration on the printer and it should be good to go unless your profile is out of wack.

 

[Wrap Colorado]

Greys on a 360 should be pretty neutral without too much trouble.
Do a calibration on the printer and it should be good to go unless your profile is out of wack.

That’s what I’ve heard... calibrated more than a few times, profile is just installed from Avery. Firmware is up to date. Can’t hit neutral greys on any profiles or media. I’m designing in CMYK. When I Design 0/0/0/50 Etc... it is green.

 

[Wrap Colorado]

Also, all printheads are shooting clean. Checked from a nozzle check out of the service menu thanks to a Denco rep that popped his head in.

 

[Bly]

The 360s can make a custom profile by pressing a couple of buttons - maybe you should do that.

 

[Wrap Colorado]

The 360s can make a custom profile by pressing a couple of buttons - maybe you should do that.

Have tried that in the past with less than satisfactory results. At one point during this we learned that my i1 was broken and that cost me about 2k a month after I bought this machine. Considering selling this 360 and buying a Mutoh 1682SR.

 

[ColorCrest]

Is there an easy explanation to printing neutral CMYK greys with a stock Avery profile based off CMYK values.

It may help consider the analogy comparing your printer against some sort of musical instrument; such as a piano.

I'm sure you understand musical instruments should be tuned using certain devices or by very astute expert technicians. Pianos are normally tuned to the frequency of 440 Hz which is the musical note of A above middle C as a standard for musical pitch. The remaining notes are tuned to scale.

Your printer is aimed to calibrate (tune) to a gray scale beginning with black, through the grays, to white. In your case of the HP, you should be able to use its onboard calibration device and method to bring the machine into tune. If that actually works, an ICC output profile from a third party (Avery) should be able to "tune" the remaining colors other than gray. Realize however, the third party profile will only be accurate if the machine they used as their basis was in the exact state of calibration as your machine's state of calibration. Know also that if you make your own profiles in-house, your profiles can correct and compensate to a surprising degree of calibration deviation.

With Caldera, you should be able to temporarily turn off any ICC output profiles to then make a print of a quality evaluation PDF in order to visually check the basic calibration of grays and color from the current state of your printer. If grays appear neutral, that fact should prompt you to then turn on the Avery profile and print the same PDF for comparison. In either case the exercise will tell you where you stand. Tune (calibrate) the machine or use a better profile. (You should not expect to "tune" or "fix" a profile.)

Other than that, a piano should actually be tunable and the performer should actually know how to play it.

 

[Christian @ Visual Graphx]

Not meant to offend, but being blunt, this is not a failure of machine it is of operator.

You are running a piece of equipment, with limitless variables and expecting your ideal of perfection. This is a recipe for disaster! You need to control every step of your process if you expect to output your expectations, no matter what print tech you choose. Simply changing print technology may or may not solve your issues, but defining a process, instituting your management methods, and maintaining color calibrations will ensure proper output.

To go to your issue at hand, it sounds like you are trying to print a pure K grey. If that is the case have you tried defining Pure Hue K in Caldera so it knows to only use the K channel and not a build?

 

[greysquirrel]

Im still not convinced there is a valid reason with todays printers to design in cmyk. You take pictures with digital cameras for your images in rgb. You design and view on a monitor that is rgb. RGB is the the widest possible color space where CMYK is clipped. Every rip will convert to its working cmyk color space to output...why clip your color before the rip does?
If you create a file in your application to 0, 0, 0, 80 for black, the rip will absolutely convert it to its cmyk version of that black unless you follow 2CT's instructions for pure grey. The l265 can absolutely give you a neutral grey from a build with minimum effort. It starts with a solid profile, I create my own using the onboard through Onyx. You can do the same in Caldera. Its an extra step but you are able to scan more patches ten just using the onboard. You need to color calibrate or re-linearize that profile very few rolls.
The heater settings on the printer can affect color. Most downloaded profiles are too high...imo
How does the print look before lamination? Some films can have a slightly yellow cast to them.
Running to a Mutoh won't solve your problems. It just gives you less options to correct...no onboard spectro...means you are forced to use a canned profile or a profile that does not match your media.
Go to HP's latex website and youtube....tons of videos and how to's for color. I am assuming you are not getting much help from your reseller or HP for this issue or have not reached out to them yet.

 

[myront]

My 2 cents worth. Grays? As cmyk or Pantone? I've found that Pantone grays are much better. Probably something to do with the way the default RIP converts the Pantones.
p.s. NEVER EVER USE

C0
M0
Y0
K100

for black.

 

[Wrap Colorado]

It may help consider the analogy comparing your printer against some sort of musical instrument; such as a piano.

I'm sure you understand musical instruments should be tuned using certain devices or by very astute expert technicians. Pianos are normally tuned to the frequency of 440 Hz which is the musical note of A above middle C as a standard for musical pitch. The remaining notes are tuned to scale.

Your printer is aimed to calibrate (tune) to a gray scale beginning with black, through the grays, to white. In your case of the HP, you should be able to use its onboard calibration device and method to bring the machine into tune. If that actually works, an ICC output profile from a third party (Avery) should be able to "tune" the remaining colors other than gray. Realize however, the third party profile will only be accurate if the machine they used as their basis was in the exact state of calibration as your machine's state of calibration. Know also that if you make your own profiles in-house, your profiles can correct and compensate to a surprising degree of calibration deviation.

With Caldera, you should be able to temporarily turn off any ICC output profiles to then make a print of a quality evaluation PDF in order to visually check the basic calibration of grays and color from the current state of your printer. If grays appear neutral, that fact should prompt you to then turn on the Avery profile and print the same PDF for comparison. In either case the exercise will tell you where you stand. Tune (calibrate) the machine or use a better profile. (You should not expect to "tune" or "fix" a profile.)

Other than that, a piano should actually be tunable and the performer should actually know how to play it.

I will definitely give that a shot with Calderas test print.

Not meant to offend, but being blunt, this is not a failure of machine it is of operator.

You are running a piece of equipment, with limitless variables and expecting your ideal of perfection. This is a recipe for disaster! You need to control every step of your process if you expect to output your expectations, no matter what print tech you choose. Simply changing print technology may or may not solve your issues, but defining a process, instituting your management methods, and maintaining color calibrations will ensure proper output.

To go to your issue at hand, it sounds like you are trying to print a pure K grey. If that is the case have you tried defining Pure Hue K in Caldera so it knows to only use the K channel and not a build?

I don’t disagree with you, I just have been trying and trying. Bought it used and right away had a 2k service call. Have seen some of the prints from a Mutoh and can’t see that off an HP. I do prefer a CMYK build, as pure K just looks too grainy. In my color calibrations, there is ALWAYS this strange cloud through my black line, and the tech even questioned it when he was here, but said looks normal. Makes me question that as well, what tech would ignore it if it was a problem.

Im still not convinced there is a valid reason with todays printers to design in cmyk. You take pictures with digital cameras for your images in rgb. You design and view on a monitor that is rgb. RGB is the the widest possible color space where CMYK is clipped. Every rip will convert to its working cmyk color space to output...why clip your color before the rip does?
If you create a file in your application to 0, 0, 0, 80 for black, the rip will absolutely convert it to its cmyk version of that black unless you follow 2CT's instructions for pure grey. The l265 can absolutely give you a neutral grey from a build with minimum effort. It starts with a solid profile, I create my own using the onboard through Onyx. You can do the same in Caldera. Its an extra step but you are able to scan more patches ten just using the onboard. You need to color calibrate or re-linearize that profile very few rolls.
The heater settings on the printer can affect color. Most downloaded profiles are too high...imo
How does the print look before lamination? Some films can have a slightly yellow cast to them.
Running to a Mutoh won't solve your problems. It just gives you less options to correct...no onboard spectro...means you are forced to use a canned profile or a profile that does not match your media.
Go to HP's latex website and youtube....tons of videos and how to's for color. I am assuming you are not getting much help from your reseller or HP for this issue or have not reached out to them yet.

Used printer, so no reseller and HP is a fkin ripoff. Color shift with or without laminate. I’m going to try some of the above and go from there. When I calibrate, I will post a picture of the greys line.

 

[myront]

Wait, why not?

You'll end up with a "murky brown"

Best result is with
R0
G0
B0

or

C45
M45
Y45
K100

 

[greysquirrel]

I will definitely give that a shot with Calderas test print.

I don’t disagree with you, I just have been trying and trying. Bought it used and right away had a 2k service call. Have seen some of the prints from a Mutoh and can’t see that off an HP. I do prefer a CMYK build, as pure K just looks too grainy. In my color calibrations, there is ALWAYS this strange cloud through my black line, and the tech even questioned it when he was here, but said looks normal. Makes me question that as well, what tech would ignore it if it was a problem.


Used printer, so no reseller and HP is a fkin ripoff. Color shift with or without laminate. I’m going to try some of the above and go from there. When I calibrate, I will post a picture of the greys line.

You are buying ink and supplies from someone that is selling HP...leverage that for some training. Any reseller would swap some free training for consistent consumable orders....

 

[Wrap Colorado]

You are buying ink and supplies from someone that is selling HP...leverage that for some training. Any reseller would swap some free training for consistent consumable orders....

I wish it was more consistent but I’m a one man show doing it all. So I can only burn through so much without losing focus. I did try to profile from caldera and it gave me a cannot read error. Then I went and profiled from the printer, which I have done in the past. After profiling, I changed my workspace to RGB and entered my greys as black only, they printed full CMYK build PERFECTLY. Cannot express how much time and materials I have wasted trying to get to where I got within 20 minutes. Why’d it work this time?!? Sure glad it did.

 

[Christian @ Visual Graphx]

Only thing that does that is, rendering intent.

Open up your color space menu and see what your rendering intents are for CMYK vs RGB.

 

[ColorCrest]

Only thing that does that is, rendering intent.

Typically, rendering intents should have no effect here regarding grays.

 

[Christian @ Visual Graphx]

Typically, rendering intents should have no effect here regarding grays.

It will have massive effect if he started in CMYK with one intent and switched to RGB with a different.

 

[ColorCrest]

It will have massive effect if he started in CMYK with one intent and switched to RGB with a different.

Then you and I must have a different understanding of the term "rendering intents." Rendering intents for me come from the ICC profile perspective of the 4 available options; Perceptual, Colorimetric, Saturation, and Absolute rendering intent.

 

[Mike Perth]

Hey guys, always seem to find an answer here to any issues I have before posting, but I’ve been trying to find a reasonable answer to this for over a year, specifically for this fleet I work on.

My setup:
HP Latex 360
Avery MPI 1105/1360
Caldera V12 Mac
Designing in Adobe Illustrator saving to .pdf.

Ive seen some threads on here explaining solutions that go way over my head. Is there an easy explanation to printing neutral CMYK greys with a stock Avery profile based off CMYK values.

Certain formulas? Certain workspace and output profiles in illustrator? Special file format or rip settings to get neutral or even close to neutral? Printing with only black just looks like **** and is really grainy.

I don’t have the money to hire in a professional or waste a bunch of material. I don’t necessarily understand color theory, and I have no experience before a year from now of operating a wide format printer. My life has been a vinyl cutter and screenprinting for years and years. This wrap is always coming out completely different, from me trying to print the same file as before, or adjusting the colors to hit more neutrals. Any help is greatly appreciated. I have 2 box trucks parked outside the shop that need to get done ASAP.

Honestly I have no been a big fan of this printer. Why should I keep it, over any eco solvent like a Mutoh Valuejet.

Quick fix with greys for us on our Latex is to increase the passes and/or drop out -10% of the yellow and cyan, we’re using Onyx. Not perfect but works for us.

 

[Christian @ Visual Graphx]

Then you and I must have a different understanding of the term "rendering intents." Rendering intents for me come from the ICC profile perspective of the 4 available options; Perceptual, Colorimetric, Saturation, and Absolute rendering intent.

No we have the same understanding. Input a color in CMYK and output 4 files (1 with each intent) then do the same using a visually similar RGB... Send to your RIP with it's rendering intent settings, print and then show the result... They will be different, so how does that not have an effect. It's even more so, when he changes his color space but still uses the opposing color build and then sends to rip.