Welcome To Signs101.com: Largest Forum for Signmaking Professionals

Signs101.com: Largest Forum for Signmaking Professionals is the LARGEST online community & discussion forum for professional sign-makers and graphic designers.

 


  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Printing Grey with HP Latex 360

Discussion in 'RIP Software & Color Management' started by DecalsByDesign, Jan 20, 2020.

  1. DecalsByDesign

    DecalsByDesign ...new here!

    18
    2
    3
    Dec 23, 2018
    Eagle, CO
    Hey guys, always seem to find an answer here to any issues I have before posting, but I’ve been trying to find a reasonable answer to this for over a year, specifically for this fleet I work on.

    My setup:
    HP Latex 360
    Avery MPI 1105/1360
    Caldera V12 Mac
    Designing in Adobe Illustrator saving to .pdf.

    Ive seen some threads on here explaining solutions that go way over my head. Is there an easy explanation to printing neutral CMYK greys with a stock Avery profile based off CMYK values.

    Certain formulas? Certain workspace and output profiles in illustrator? Special file format or rip settings to get neutral or even close to neutral? Printing with only black just looks like **** and is really grainy.

    I don’t have the money to hire in a professional or waste a bunch of material. I don’t necessarily understand color theory, and I have no experience before a year from now of operating a wide format printer. My life has been a vinyl cutter and screenprinting for years and years. This wrap is always coming out completely different, from me trying to print the same file as before, or adjusting the colors to hit more neutrals. Any help is greatly appreciated. I have 2 box trucks parked outside the shop that need to get done ASAP.

    Honestly I have no been a big fan of this printer. Why should I keep it, over any eco solvent like a Mutoh Valuejet.
     

    Attached Files:

    Tags:
  2. Bly

    Bly Very Active Member

    2,850
    303
    83
    Mar 9, 2004
    Sydney
    Greys on a 360 should be pretty neutral without too much trouble.
    Do a calibration on the printer and it should be good to go unless your profile is out of wack.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. DecalsByDesign

    DecalsByDesign ...new here!

    18
    2
    3
    Dec 23, 2018
    Eagle, CO
    That’s what I’ve heard... calibrated more than a few times, profile is just installed from Avery. Firmware is up to date. Can’t hit neutral greys on any profiles or media. I’m designing in CMYK. When I Design 0/0/0/50 Etc... it is green.
     
  4. DecalsByDesign

    DecalsByDesign ...new here!

    18
    2
    3
    Dec 23, 2018
    Eagle, CO
    Also, all printheads are shooting clean. Checked from a nozzle check out of the service menu thanks to a Denco rep that popped his head in.
     
  5. Bly

    Bly Very Active Member

    2,850
    303
    83
    Mar 9, 2004
    Sydney
    The 360s can make a custom profile by pressing a couple of buttons - maybe you should do that.
     
  6. DecalsByDesign

    DecalsByDesign ...new here!

    18
    2
    3
    Dec 23, 2018
    Eagle, CO
    Have tried that in the past with less than satisfactory results. At one point during this we learned that my i1 was broken and that cost me about 2k a month after I bought this machine. Considering selling this 360 and buying a Mutoh 1682SR.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. ColorCrest

    ColorCrest Active Member

    564
    77
    28
    Dec 11, 2017
    So Cal
    It may help consider the analogy comparing your printer against some sort of musical instrument; such as a piano.

    I'm sure you understand musical instruments should be tuned using certain devices or by very astute expert technicians. Pianos are normally tuned to the frequency of 440 Hz which is the musical note of A above middle C as a standard for musical pitch. The remaining notes are tuned to scale.

    Your printer is aimed to calibrate (tune) to a gray scale beginning with black, through the grays, to white. In your case of the HP, you should be able to use its onboard calibration device and method to bring the machine into tune. If that actually works, an ICC output profile from a third party (Avery) should be able to "tune" the remaining colors other than gray. Realize however, the third party profile will only be accurate if the machine they used as their basis was in the exact state of calibration as your machine's state of calibration. Know also that if you make your own profiles in-house, your profiles can correct and compensate to a surprising degree of calibration deviation.

    With Caldera, you should be able to temporarily turn off any ICC output profiles to then make a print of a quality evaluation PDF in order to visually check the basic calibration of grays and color from the current state of your printer. If grays appear neutral, that fact should prompt you to then turn on the Avery profile and print the same PDF for comparison. In either case the exercise will tell you where you stand. Tune (calibrate) the machine or use a better profile. (You should not expect to "tune" or "fix" a profile.)

    Other than that, a piano should actually be tunable and the performer should actually know how to play it.
     
    • OMG / Wow! OMG / Wow! x 1
  8. 2CT Media

    2CT Media Major Contributor

    4,140
    577
    113
    Jun 15, 2009
    Mesa, Arizona
    Not meant to offend, but being blunt, this is not a failure of machine it is of operator.

    You are running a piece of equipment, with limitless variables and expecting your ideal of perfection. This is a recipe for disaster! You need to control every step of your process if you expect to output your expectations, no matter what print tech you choose. Simply changing print technology may or may not solve your issues, but defining a process, instituting your management methods, and maintaining color calibrations will ensure proper output.

    To go to your issue at hand, it sounds like you are trying to print a pure K grey. If that is the case have you tried defining Pure Hue K in Caldera so it knows to only use the K channel and not a build?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. greysquirrel

    greysquirrel Member

    373
    34
    28
    Aug 13, 2015
    West Berlin, NJ
    Im still not convinced there is a valid reason with todays printers to design in cmyk. You take pictures with digital cameras for your images in rgb. You design and view on a monitor that is rgb. RGB is the the widest possible color space where CMYK is clipped. Every rip will convert to its working cmyk color space to output...why clip your color before the rip does?
    If you create a file in your application to 0, 0, 0, 80 for black, the rip will absolutely convert it to its cmyk version of that black unless you follow 2CT's instructions for pure grey. The l265 can absolutely give you a neutral grey from a build with minimum effort. It starts with a solid profile, I create my own using the onboard through Onyx. You can do the same in Caldera. Its an extra step but you are able to scan more patches ten just using the onboard. You need to color calibrate or re-linearize that profile very few rolls.
    The heater settings on the printer can affect color. Most downloaded profiles are too high...imo
    How does the print look before lamination? Some films can have a slightly yellow cast to them.
    Running to a Mutoh won't solve your problems. It just gives you less options to correct...no onboard spectro...means you are forced to use a canned profile or a profile that does not match your media.
    Go to HP's latex website and youtube....tons of videos and how to's for color. I am assuming you are not getting much help from your reseller or HP for this issue or have not reached out to them yet.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. myront

    myront CorelDRAW is best

    1,280
    228
    63
    Dec 3, 2015
    Niceville, FL
    My 2 cents worth. Grays? As cmyk or Pantone? I've found that Pantone grays are much better. Probably something to do with the way the default RIP converts the Pantones.
    p.s. NEVER EVER USE

    C0
    M0
    Y0
    K100

    for black.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. DecalsByDesign

    DecalsByDesign ...new here!

    18
    2
    3
    Dec 23, 2018
    Eagle, CO
    I will definitely give that a shot with Calderas test print.
    I don’t disagree with you, I just have been trying and trying. Bought it used and right away had a 2k service call. Have seen some of the prints from a Mutoh and can’t see that off an HP. I do prefer a CMYK build, as pure K just looks too grainy. In my color calibrations, there is ALWAYS this strange cloud through my black line, and the tech even questioned it when he was here, but said looks normal. Makes me question that as well, what tech would ignore it if it was a problem.

    Used printer, so no reseller and HP is a fkin ripoff. Color shift with or without laminate. I’m going to try some of the above and go from there. When I calibrate, I will post a picture of the greys line.
     
  12. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

    1,016
    190
    63
    Sep 28, 2017
    Arkansas
    Wait, why not?
     
  13. myront

    myront CorelDRAW is best

    1,280
    228
    63
    Dec 3, 2015
    Niceville, FL
    You'll end up with a "murky brown"

    Best result is with
    R0
    G0
    B0

    or

    C45
    M45
    Y45
    K100
     
  14. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

    1,016
    190
    63
    Sep 28, 2017
    Arkansas
    I see. I find my 100k black works just fine at 20p, but we all know to never run these at 20p!
    I have a customer who has a 'charcoal' material from Johnson Plastics, that wants everything in the hospital to match this plastic. Luckily it's pretty close to duranodic bronze, which can be simulated on a 560 by running 90k at 20 passes.
     
  15. greysquirrel

    greysquirrel Member

    373
    34
    28
    Aug 13, 2015
    West Berlin, NJ


    You are buying ink and supplies from someone that is selling HP...leverage that for some training. Any reseller would swap some free training for consistent consumable orders....
     
  16. DecalsByDesign

    DecalsByDesign ...new here!

    18
    2
    3
    Dec 23, 2018
    Eagle, CO
    I wish it was more consistent but I’m a one man show doing it all. So I can only burn through so much without losing focus. I did try to profile from caldera and it gave me a cannot read error. Then I went and profiled from the printer, which I have done in the past. After profiling, I changed my workspace to RGB and entered my greys as black only, they printed full CMYK build PERFECTLY. Cannot express how much time and materials I have wasted trying to get to where I got within 20 minutes. Why’d it work this time?!? Sure glad it did.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. 2CT Media

    2CT Media Major Contributor

    4,140
    577
    113
    Jun 15, 2009
    Mesa, Arizona
    Only thing that does that is, rendering intent.

    Open up your color space menu and see what your rendering intents are for CMYK vs RGB.
     
  18. ColorCrest

    ColorCrest Active Member

    564
    77
    28
    Dec 11, 2017
    So Cal
    Typically, rendering intents should have no effect here regarding grays.
     
  19. 2CT Media

    2CT Media Major Contributor

    4,140
    577
    113
    Jun 15, 2009
    Mesa, Arizona
    It will have massive effect if he started in CMYK with one intent and switched to RGB with a different.
     
  20. ColorCrest

    ColorCrest Active Member

    564
    77
    28
    Dec 11, 2017
    So Cal
    Then you and I must have a different understanding of the term "rendering intents." Rendering intents for me come from the ICC profile perspective of the 4 available options; Perceptual, Colorimetric, Saturation, and Absolute rendering intent.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...

Share This Page

 


Loading...