Removing handlettering on fire truck

[round man]

I had a couple of fire dept's. that wouldn't change the rags or sponges in their wash buckets because they used them so often,..well the gilding and lettering started to wear off a couple of their trucks and when they called me to fix it , I realized the problem because it appeared as tho the work had been compounded off the trucks. I asked about their wash procedures and found that they weren't rinsing their wash rags and or sponges well and a fine powder of dirt and silt from the washing process had built up in the bottom of the wash buckets and rags,etc. It was acting like a rubbing compound on the lettering and eating thru the clear coats faster than rubbing compound would have as it was somewhat coarser than compound and was much more abrasive. told them to wash the rags/sponges and rinse the wash buckets out good after each use and the problem went away.

On another note,....Once upon a time a local city manager told the general public his phone number at work and told the general public to call him if they saw any "any" city employees leaning on a shovel and or standing around not doing their job on a radio show about city employees standing around and not working on road construction sites. Well the fire dept Capt. of this particular metro fire dept with about 15 stations told his firemen to keep a truck door pr compartment open and if they thought the public was watching to stick their head in said compartment and look "busy" when needed,.....ya gotta love that kinda logic!!!!! I got over a dozen work orders to repair compartment door stripe gilding over the next few months,..seems the compartment doors didn't fair too well when they were left open and the trucks rolled out the door on a call in a hurry, Neither did the garage door assemblies from what I learned later,....

 

[artsnletters]

What `Si Allen suggested +1 here,....
As for the debate of signgold vs real gilding,..I have lettered and gilded over 100 fire apparatus vehicles over the span of my career and never once did I try to use signgold,..all you have to see is a true good gilding job get close enough to a fire to melt the plastic reflector lenses one time to realize signgold just don't cut the mustard,..real gold will hold up as long as the paint it is on,if done properly,..thats the problem nowadays 99 out of 100 ppl trying to convince the client they know what they are doing actually don't.And the part about the clear coats not holding up are a farce also,..,the clear coats available today are ten times better than anything that has been available in the past,..you just have to know what you are doing,....and do it well.

Clear coating in some senses are better...modern urethane clears are pretty durable. However, i don't know what you are using to top coat your surface gilded jobs (perhaps you could enlighten us), but i've had 2 part urethanes delaminate off the leaf surface a few times. Combine that with a pressure washer or rough washing techniques and occasionally you can have a problem. I don't know in this economy, i see more and more cities actually using Signgold on their apparatus. Either more people are convincing them of Signgold Vs. Hand done real gilded Gold or maybe less qualified people to do the leaf. I never had problems with clears coming off 10 years ago...
Tim

 

[Gino]

Artsn........

That's the whole gist of what I was saying. The vinyl jockeys of today are convincing end-users [not just fire companies] that this SignGold is the end all of gold leaf techniques. They approach it as if the hand gilded leaf is a thing of the past and you want the good stuff now because it comes with a 10 year guarantee. BullChit !! They simply can't do it. The majority of shops today can't do anything by hand if their life depended on it. These end-users come to you and if someone [even an a**hole] says something with authority... and enough times.... that end-user will begin to believe it. When you go to 4 other shops [who also can't do it by hand since most of the shops, again are vinyl jockeys] they will shop for price alone and not go for the quality that will last a few decades.

It's a horrible never-ending cycle, but its taking place in every facet of the sign industry and what once was... is no more since all the pattern makers are dieing off. This industry is changing by the day and it's not really a pretty sight to see an art form such as this... turned into a free-for-all to the lowest bidder, instead of purchases being made based upon quality for onesownself.

 

[Billct2]

I'd like to know the clear coat you use too. I have a job coming up and it will have some copper leaf I'll need to clear. I've tried many, but it's been a while. I think the last one I used that worked well was a two part marine clear.

 

[artsnletters]

Artsn........

That's the whole gist of what I was saying. The vinyl jockeys of today are convincing end-users [not just fire companies] that this SignGold is the end all of gold leaf techniques. They approach it as if the hand gilded leaf is a thing of the past and you want the good stuff now because it comes with a 10 year guarantee. BullChit !! They simply can't do it. The majority of shops today can't do anything by hand if their life depended on it. These end-users come to you and if someone [even an a**hole] says something with authority... and enough times.... that end-user will begin to believe it. When you go to 4 other shops [who also can't do it by hand since most of the shops, again are vinyl jockeys] they will shop for price alone and not go for the quality that will last a few decades.

It's a horrible never-ending cycle, but its taking place in every facet of the sign industry and what once was... is no more since all the pattern makers are dieing off. This industry is changing by the day and it's not really a pretty sight to see an art form such as this... turned into a free-for-all to the lowest bidder, instead of purchases being made based upon quality for onesownself.

great and profound post Gino! I don't do surface gilded leaf as much as i used to, but when i do, it still is as much fun as it ever was....the problem is having customers that appreciate it enough to pay what its worth. I still do stuff like this now and again....it aint a fire truck but you get the idea.

 

[round man]

I've been using an omni two part clear and we have used imrom 7600 spot clear without any problems here,...most problems I have seen are with folks trying to use asphaultum varnishes with the new 2 part clears as they are incompatible,(we have been using brown hok mixed with clear to simulate the old asphaultum varnish effects with good success)...improper prep and contamination are the usual culprits with clear failing,..now I haven't done any gold work here for the past five or so years due to the vinyl jockeys pushing signgold for half the price of real gold,but I haven't had any failures to date on stuff that has been out there almost two decades with 2 part urethane clears on them. I never thin the clear and brush it straight on top of the gold after spinning it,before I do any outlines or shades to keep from contaminating the gild or paint surface with any oils from my skin and or fingerprints. most folks I have seen do it like the old textbooks say and clear the work last,....we use an overlap to seal the gild and hide behind the outline and shade so as not to damage the gild while painting the outline and shade,...any excess can be cleaned off as soon as the clear dries with a mild prep solvent and you don't have to be so meticulous with outlines and shades this way, nor do you get a chance to contaminate the surface for the clear to delaminate.The edge of the clear is sealed behind a layer of outline or shadow.

Edited to add,.,we used a mild slow drying lacquer thinner w/ hardener for a solvent in our black to bite the paint surface better but nowadays I would use hok black or dupont hot hues instead of oneshot which has went to hell in the past five years,....last of all I have done very little work with dutch metal (verigated) and copper leaf so this may very well apply only to "true" gold leaf".

 

[artsnletters]

I've been using an omni two part clear and we have used imrom 7600 spot clear without any problems here,...most problems I have seen are with folks trying to use asphaultum varnishes with the new 2 part clears as they are incompatible,(we have been using brown hok mixed with clear to simulate the old asphaultum varnish effects with good success)...improper prep and contamination are the usual culprits with clear failing,..now I haven't done any gold work here for the past five or so years due to the vinyl jockeys pushing signgold for half the price of real gold,but I haven't had any failures to date on stuff that has been out there almost two decades with 2 part urethane clears on them. I never thin the clear and brush it straight on top of the gold after spinning it,before I do any outlines or shades to keep from contaminating the gild or paint surface with any oils from my skin and or fingerprints. most folks I have seen do it like the old textbooks say and clear the work last,....we use an overlap to seal the gild and hide behind the outline and shade so as not to damage the gild while painting the outline and shade,...any excess can be cleaned off as soon as the clear dries with a mild prep solvent and you don't have to be so meticulous with outlines and shades this way, nor do you get a chance to contaminate the surface for the clear to delaminate.The edge of the clear is sealed behind a layer of outline or shadow.

Edited to add,.,we used a mild slow drying lacquer thinner w/ hardener for a solvent in our black to bite the paint surface better but nowadays I would use hok black or dupont hot hues instead of oneshot which has went to hell in the past five years,....last of all I have done very little work with dutch metal (verigated) and copper leaf so this may very well apply only to "true" gold leaf".

thanks for your post. Thats how i clear my gold too....right after spinning. Slight overlap to seal the edges too...which outlining covers. I've been using HoK clear striping urethane w/ hardener or HoK UC35 brushed on w/ no reducer, just w/ hardener. My minor problem has been delaminating when masking on top of the clear, using taped guide lines for striping graphics. I dont do that anymore. The roadster above was cleared with Omni clear then striped then cleared again.
Sorry for the thread jack to the OP.
Lots of good info here for those doing surface gilding....
Thanks Round Man!
Tim

 

[American & Proud]

Heres a recently posted video. November 13, 2010.

Removal of Painted Kenworth Truck Lettering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfWL4ncEyI8

Her ID on youtube is monkeysign123 and has posted 36 vids so far.

Her name is Alicia Jennings.

I love when she posts up another vid, shes very talented.

This latest vid of hers should give you some helpful tips and visuals.

(Watch her other vids as well.)

 

[round man]

Got the chance to paint with Alicia at the wall dog meet in Danville, Il. this past august and I have to say the gal is the real McCoy,..very talented and professional young lady there,....

Edited to add,..Arts&letters, I have had problems with the clear de-laminating when I try to mask over the clear here also,..figured out a long time ago that's why the old timers taught me to use patterns,and why I suggested Si's solution works

 

[SignosaurusRex]

GREAT POSTS!

 

[American & Proud]

Got the chance to paint with Alicia at the wall dog meet in Danville, Il. this past august and I have to say the gal is the real McCoy,..very talented and professional young lady there,....

Edited to add,..Arts&letters, I have had problems with the clear de-laminating when I try to mask over the clear here also,..figured out a long time ago that's why the old timers taught me to use patterns,and why I suggested Si's solution works

She posted a video of the Danville. IL. wall dog meet.

I was like, Damn wish I had known about that.

I would have gone and spent the whole day or weekend however long you guys were there just to watch and take my own pics and vids.

Heck I would have volunteered just to be a Gopher. (Go for this, go for that.)

I plan on taking a drive to Danville in the Spring just to find as many as I can and take pics of them all.

I watch her vids and others lettering and painting signs and I am mezmorized. I could just watch hand letterers (sp) for hours on end and just be Amazed.

Wish I was 25 years younger and could get under a signpainters wing.

 

[firesignz]

I have but two comments to make.

First - whoever had the truck so close as to melt the lenses and lettering should no longer be a chauffeur - so much for the collapse zone.

Second - I agree that gilding is by far superior in look as compared to sign gold BUT many areas of the country (especially here on LI) fire districts are being forced to look at more FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE options when spending the taxpayer dollars.

Of course that is just going to open up more arguments. But wanted to weigh in on something I LIVE WITH EVERY DAY!

 

[signcrafters london]

I'm with you, firesignz. Our local county FD doesn't want to spend money the way it used to. We built and installed them a very nice electric pylon sign ~ 10 years ago. When they were forced to drop their weekly bingo game (lol) at this location they decided to offer it as an event hall that can be rented. Rather than pay for new pan faces, they went and got them the cheapest banners they could find and screwed them over the faces.

 

[round man]

Firesignz they didn't melt the gilding in fact it got real shiney as tho it had liquified and become more mirror like. the incident took place when they parked close enough to chimney to get the ladder and hose to the chimney and the chimney blew out at the bottom and the heat was so intense it melted all the plastic lenses and left the gold shinier than before,go figure,signgold would have melted into a useless goo,...

as for the economy I haven't done a truck in almost a decade due to the vinyl jockey's pushin signgold for about half of what they do normal work like that just to have some gold work to show off,..,.the dealers here have their own cutting systems and no longer use the local gilder(me).

 

[Mosh]

What is an extra $500 for real leaf lettering on a $400,000 truck?

 

[round man]

nonexistant in today's economy the dealer's will cut and apply thier own vinyl to put that $500 in thier own pocket. besides there's more like a $1500 difference in real gold and vinyl job these days.