RGB Vector Art from Customers - ARRGGH!!

[Bobby H]

We have to put up with so many problems involving customer provided artwork. Unacceptable JPEG and PNG images are emailed on a near-daily basis, if not even more often. Clients play games with those junk files, saving them inside a container file in AI, PDF, EPS or CDR format. I've seen a few merely try changing the file name to include the word "vector" -as if doing that would change a pixel-based image into a use-able piece of vector artwork. Maybe they'll do something random like re-send the image inside a PowerPoint PPT document. Naturally some of them get bent out of shape at the idea of having to pay any "design fees" to re-build their artwork. They gave us a "digital" file in the first place. Digital means perfect, right?

Even when we receive vector-based artwork it can still be pock-marked with problems. Missing fonts are a constant problem. Or the art has something "live" in it that depends on a third party plugin.

Lately I've been receiving more and more Illustrator files built up in RGB format. The RGB color space alone can cause enough problems with gamut range limits. The RGB situation gets so much worse when the "designer" bakes in a lot of transparency effects. Rather than use straight-forward flat or gradient fills they have to layer over a bunch of other objects with different transparency effects applied. Transparency blending effects like Overlay, Multiply and Screen can be a big problem when applied to objects in RGB artwork. Merely ungrouping some of this stuff can cause the colors to just "break" in very unpredictable ways.

The situation gets me pretty angry. We don't print in RGB. At some point the RGB-based artwork has to be converted over to CMYK color space. With some of these customer provided files all we can do is build up all the client sketches and work files in RGB color space, feed a RGB-based file into the large format RIP application and then cross our fingers.

I attached an image to this post showing the difference from a RGB client file (lettering removed) with the art in RGB color space and one of the things that happens when it is collapsed to CMYK. The left falcon image is the intended RGB design. The one on the right shows what happens when it is changed to CMYK. A bunch of things just break.

One of the lessons in "Graphic Design 101" is you design your artwork for how it will be output. If the stuff is only going to be displayed on computer screens then RGB might be okay. If it's going to be printed it needs to be built up in CMYK. I don't see as many issues shifting something from CMYK to RGB. But going the other direction can be a real PITA.

 

[Johnny Best]

I realize you are bothered by this from thre customer but the probłem cannot be fixed on here because your and all of the other customers will not get the message from here. After all these years the customer still do stupid things to get their artwork accomplished and I think it is not going to get better in the future.
Stay strong and have a great Christmas and a great next year.

 

[ColorCrest]

I attached an image to this post showing the difference from a RGB client file (lettering removed) with the art in RGB color space and one of the things that happens when it is collapsed to CMYK. The left falcon image is the intended RGB design. The one on the right shows what happens when it is changed to CMYK. A bunch of things just break.

So that I'm clear, you're saying the supplied RGB image becomes brighter (the image on the right side) when converted to CMYK? What do you mean exactly when you say "collapsed" to CMYK?

 

[Bobby H]

I'm using the term "collapsed" because the color appearances in the RGB-based artwork shift very dramatically when converted to CMYK. The conversion method doesn't really matter either. You still get wildly unpredictable results. So the only thing we can do is feed the artwork into the RIP at a RGB file and hope the RIP doesn't make the colors too off the ball wacky when it does its own conversion. The situation is every bit as bad as someone using Pantone spot colors in fills with transparency effects. They just shouldn't do that stupid stuff in the first place.

 

[ColorCrest]

I'm using the term "collapsed" because the color appearances in the RGB-based artwork shift very dramatically when converted to CMYK

I think the term "collapsed" would describe something that goes down. Are you sure to say the colors on the right side image become brighter, as in "up," when converted from RGB on the left side to CMYK on the right side? Or is it the other way around?

In any case, it's just a simple color management issue is all. On my end, the image doesn't change at all when I convert using the proper output ICC profiles for a modern large format printer.

For anyone to submit a CMYK print file for accurate expectations, they would need the actual CMYK output ICC profile of the machine which will print the file. CMYK files are device dependent. Available from some printer manufacturers are wide gamut CMYK working spaces which is roughly equivalent to the common RGB working spaces. So, the proper working spaces and proper output profiles are necessary.

 

[gnubler]

Eternal problem without a solution and it will only continue to get worse. I worked in prepress in commercial printing for too many years and dealt with the same garbage.

You can thank Canva for the scourge of crap files we now get.

 

[Boudica]

Bobby, if you're using an Epson S80600 (or any printer with more than 4 colors) - you should be printing RGB files. RGB has a wider color gamut, and your printer has more than just CMYK - you've got 9 colors. You will get much better color printing an RGB file.

RGB on the left, CMYK on the right; it may not be the most obvious evidence, but you are missing out on a lot of good saturation in all primaries.

 

[The Vector Doctor]

is canva the problem or is it the lack of knowledge by the users? The basic version allows you to create freely but in order to get a usable vector in svg or pdf format you have to be a premium subscriber. Isn't Canva just another tool and in the hands of beginners it results in files that don't work well for production

I would say 95% of the files i get from Canva users are from those who have not paid the premium subscription price and thus they can only provide image files that are not vector.

 

[CanuckSigns]

I don't blame "non-professional" designers for this, it's not their job to understand the printing industry, it's our job to tell them what we need, and if they can't get it we can convert it for a fee.

Now professional designers are fully at fault, but you should be providing some sort of digital proof, and if their is an issue it's on them to figure out. Don't stress over it.

 

[gnubler]

I would say 95% of the files i get from Canva users are from those who have not paid the premium subscription price and thus they can only provide image files that are not vector.

Exactly. And then customers get frustrated with us for not being able to use the files, as if it's our fault they're being cheap.
People think they're saving money by doing it themselves but it just makes everything harder. This applies to many other scenarios, not just digital files and graphic design.

 

[Bobby H]

I think the term "collapsed" would describe something that goes down. Are you sure to say the colors on the right side image become brighter, as in "up," when converted from RGB on the left side to CMYK on the right side? Or is it the other way around?

The colors in the RGB artwork have a wider gamut range than the CMYK result. A bunch of the more fiery, deeper colors disappear. That's why I used the word "collapsed." I really don't care what term is used.

In any case, it's just a simple color management issue is all.

It's an artwork issue. Again, just within the Adobe Illustrator environment I can copy the RGB artwork from an RGB document and then paste it into another Illustrator document that is CMYK. The colors shift dramatically. Hell, just ungrouping the Falcon element causes a bunch of color shifting within the native RGB document.

Whoever designed the artwork stacked multiple copies of grayscale gradient objects with different transparency effects applied. The artwork is set up so if it goes outside a RGB-based Illustrator file the colors just get screwed up. They could have achieved the same colors just using conventional fills without all the transparency mumbo jumbo. RGB to CMYK conversions would yield much more predictable results.

Topping it off, some of the colors in the RGB artwork are well outside the gamut range limits of CMYK.

Bobby, if you're using an Epson S80600 (or any printer with more than 4 colors) - you should be printing RGB files. RGB has a wider color gamut, and your printer has more than just CMYK - you've got 9 colors. You will get much better color printing an RGB file.

We have a couple HP Latex printers that have 6 ink colors. Due to the nature of the artwork we have no choice but to create RGB PDF files of this artwork for Onyx to process.

is canva the problem or is it the lack of knowledge by the users?

The artwork was created using Adobe Illustrator. The designer just built up his collection of school logos all in RGB color space and went nuts with the transparency overlay effects. The problem is a bunch of those transparency blending modes work differently between RGB and CMYK color models.

One thing that makes the artwork difficult to edit, convert to CMYK or export to other formats is the lack of organization. It would be one thing if they used effects such as opacity masks -something that shows up being what it is in the Appearance panel. In this case the designer merely applied effects to individual objects or groups as he went. The design process might have gone faster, but the end result is a house of cards.

Canva is another growing problem though, just with other clients though.

 

[NoosaNet]

When this happens here we place the file in Illustrator CMYK then save as PDF and send client back the file to proof.
If they don't like the CMYK colours we just say sorry can't help and let them go somewhere else.
Id rather not have a client than a unhappy one.

 

[Aardvark Printing]

I don't know how many more times I can hear "But it looked fine on my screen" before I wind up in the newspaper.
Not many for sure.

 

[ColorCrest]

this happens here we place the file in Illustrator CMYK

I'm curious to learn why the customer's file is being converted CMYK, if anyone cares to share. Also, what CMYK profile exactly?

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

So we have built an automation workflow for this and pair a manual process in for RGB transparencies. The way to keep the color "correct" then convert is to flatten from the bottom up. So you have to go layer by layer, flattening each set of layers up.

Then you can convert or run it through color management.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I'm lost. Why wouldn't you just send it to the rip as an RGB? The RIP handles the conversion better than the graphics program.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

I'm lost. Why wouldn't you just send it to the rip as an RGB? The RIP handles the conversion better than the graphics program.

So I can tell you from experience that most RIPs, when they encounter an RGB transparency, can get some wild results, and also, like mentioned above, an Opacity or a Pantone or other SPOT color can also give you varying results from print to print. This is because there is no true color mapping when converting these items.

An RGB is for on-screen color starting from black; when adding "white' layers, which transparencies do, you are essentially adding full color over color, which can confuse the mapping.
A SPOT color, if built in LAB like Pantone, has a whole host of other problems; a huge mathematical equation allows for LAB to be remapped to suit an opacity or transparency. Most software has a different version of that math, so you get different results.

These are all things we have encountered nearly daily, and we built automated workflows to handle, isolate, and highlight the trouble areas. There is manual intervention in some cases, like RGB transparency overlays, but for the most part, with certain software, you can fix things automatically.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

How is it that when I send a file to S365 they request RGB, and no matter how vibrant I make the blues, reds, greens I'm surprised at how well they hit those colors. They wouldn't have any issues with that logo Bobby. I don't know enough to argue here...but they can do it without a problem and I don't think they have the time to mess with everyone's artwork and complain about it

 

[SightLine]

I know we have been using RGB (design with Adobe RGB 1998 profile) for 15+ years and get much more vibrant color than we do with CMYK. There is the rare occasion though where some of those effects, particularly when combined with gradients can cause issues though but generally only when we try to mess with editing the files which I chalk up to them being designed with some other software that we do not use (we use Illustrator). If we just let Flexi deal with it then 99% of the time they still print fine.

 

[d fleming]

It's our job to convert chicken poop to chicken soup. Charge accordingly. Our customers may think they are graphic artists but that's about as far as it goes.