Roland VG to VG2 Firmware removes service mode, end user access deleted??

[TimToad]

tim,
i really didn't have an opinion on this until your comment.
if i do a potentially damaging repair to my car, my printer OR ANYTHING ELSE it is at my risk & i void the warranty. (you learn this, before lunch, on the first day in law school)

seriously, we fought the right to repair battle with sony in 1978, i believe. they said we weren't authorized to do an out of warranty repair & they would only sell circuit boards and major assemblies to authorized service facilities. they were wrong...

the day you give roland the big pile of money & they give you the printer that choice should no longer be theirs to make

I agree with your opinion as long as that day when you give them that money, it is in full and you don't have expectations of them coming to fix something on their dime that you muck up if you know its not a covered failure.

With more and more leased equipment being placed in service, it gets even more complicated because you have both a manufacturer AND a lender counting on the financial stability and value of their asset.

 

[Category5]

If I want to work on my turbo diesel on my new VW... then I can. I may wreck the warranty. That's my choice. But why would I do that under warranty?

Funny you should use VW as an example. Try installing a new ECU in your VW/Audi vehicle without taking it to a dealer. They locked down access to the unlock codes in 2003, relegating them to authorized dealerships’ diagnostics machines that connect directly to the mothership. Even the dealership tech can no longer see the codes. The computer does it for them securely.

 

[Solventinkjet]

In my experience some Russian guy will have a hacked version of the peck tool in no time. Also, I am seeing a lot of comments on here about protecting the printer from the untrained end user messing something big up and ruining the machine. First of all that's their right and second, I can tell you from first hand experience, I have helped 1000's of people work on their own machines with great success. Turns out people who run sign shops tend to be DIYers.

 

[Signed Out]

In my experience some Russian guy will have a hacked version of the peck tool in no time. Also, I am seeing a lot of comments on here about protecting the printer from the untrained end user messing something big up and ruining the machine. First of all that's their right and second, I can tell you from first hand experience, I have helped 1000's of people work on their own machines with great success. Turns out people who run sign shops tend to be DIYers.

Totally agree.

 

[Signed Out]

Ok - sorry if I hit the wrong reply button a couple time and messed up this string. But I did want to respond to you on this. This new utility will not prevent you from doing "user level" service on your printer, like cap tops, wipers, cutter protection strips, etc. The Peck2 utility was developed to help us find ways to keep our printers performing at the highest possible levels. We are working toward features like predictive maintenance and things like that. And the Peck2 was a start down that road. It's not my place to know all the details on this utility, but going forward, we hope that it helps us better service the machines.

As far as the new inks are concerned - they are significantly improved, in my opinion - particularly when it comes to vehicle graphics. We have 3M and Avery certifications for vehicle wraps with the new ink.

I am taking the liberty of posting a link to the VG2, which has more information about the inks.

https://www.rolanddga.com/products/printers/truevis-vg2-printer-cutters

As far as higher level service activity is concerned, you should all know that this string has prompted conversations about warranty vs out of warranty and the implications for our customers. I will make sure to revisit and post any developments on this string, when they are available.

I'm seeing a ton of push back here and on other sites/FB groups about this forced lockout. Is Roland working on a better solution? Or are they jumping off the bridge?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Having worked on my own John Deere tractors and mowers and I have done work on my 6.0 PSD both in and out of warranty time period. It used to be doing even an oil change would get you into trouble with doing maintenance on your own vehicle and warranty voiding.

I find it ironic about about this. Being locked out of printers (although a different printer type) is what lead to the GNU project.

I've gotten to the point where most of my hardware (rather it's computers or production machines) is more of an open nature. Even if it's the perception of a lockout, some won't like that. I sure don't.

Now granted that means that a user can screw something up, but guess what, if they outlayed their hard earned cash for something, that should be their ability. It sucks when something does break, but everything should be available to them (doesn't matter if they can or want to do anything with that, it's still available to them).

I would suspect that most users that are on sites like this, tend to be DIYers as it is. Otherwise, why are they on a site like this in the first place? Usually there is that first issue that they have that leads them to search for forums to ask for help (after that, they may continue on for other reasons, but that initial entry point is usually something is needed to be researched). Not everyone mind you, but I would say more often then not (at least 51% of the time) that's the case.

 

[TimToad]

Having worked on my own John Deere tractors and mowers and I have done work on my 6.0 PSD both in and out of warranty time period. It used to be doing even an oil change would get you into trouble with doing maintenance on your own vehicle and warranty voiding.

I find it ironic about about this. Being locked out of printers (although a different printer type) is what lead to the GNU project.

I've gotten to the point where most of my hardware (rather it's computers or production machines) is more of an open nature. Even if it's the perception of a lockout, some won't like that. I sure don't.

Now granted that means that a user can screw something up, but guess what, if they outlayed their hard earned cash for something, that should be their ability. It sucks when something does break, but everything should be available to them (doesn't matter if they can or want to do anything with that, it's still available to them).

I would suspect that most users that are on sites like this, tend to be DIYers as it is. Otherwise, why are they on a site like this in the first place? Usually there is that first issue that they have that leads them to search for forums to ask for help (after that, they may continue on for other reasons, but that initial entry point is usually something is needed to be researched). Not everyone mind you, but I would say more often then not (at least 51% of the time) that's the case.

While agreeing with you on the basic premise of having the autonomy to fix our own fully owned machines and equipment AFTER a warranty or payment period ends, I can see a manufacturer's point of view about not allowing full access to self-repair while under warranty or still making payments on a machine. Especially if the customer is expecting service techs to come fix things they may have damaged or made worse on the back of the warranty or finance company's asset.

Just like a car or other time purchase, you don't really "own" the product until you've made the final payment and all financial obligations to others have been completed.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

...

 

[ProPDF]

I'm seeing a ton of push back here and on other sites/FB groups about this forced lockout. Is Roland working on a better solution? Or are they jumping off the bridge?

I just sent Roland DGA a message on here asking if they would jump in.

To the Roland dealer/s who replied this isn't about what Roland has never allowed. This is about what Roland has never stopped. If Roland had an amazing tech support network that offered 72hr onsite response time like Epson and released the block of service mode after warranty expiration and informed consumers they were doing this I can see it being beneficial to everyone. I also assume Roland is getting really tired of people getting on forums like this and asking for help for their problematic VG machines under warranty....to which in some cases they won't even send a tech out they just ship you a brand new replacement printer.

Waiting.......

 

[ProPDF]

If you have more questions about this, please feel free to PM me here

Thank you for responding, I sent Roland a message. Let's keep it in the open.

 

[ProPDF]

We do not sell parts to end users, only to authorized dealers

Yes you do.

https://dgastore.rolanddga.com/category/inkjet-parts-accessories

 

[ProPDF]

Do you do major, potentially damaging repairs on any of your cars or trucks that are still under warranty?

If most of the major printer brands are employing similar limits to end user access while the printer is under warranty, what brands are we left to choose from?

China. Not if but when.

 

[ProPDF]

Do you do major, potentially damaging repairs on any of your cars or trucks that are still under warranty?

Yes......If every time your new under warranty car broke down on the side of the road and the only way it could be repaired is having a manufacture tech schedule an appointment to come to the side of the road you are on 4-5-6 plus days later to repair the car on site only to find out the tech wasn't trained properly and didn't carry all the parts needed to repair the car and will have to come back to you on the side of the road in a few days.....especially if it was Friday. There are no tow trucks for printers and no one in their right mind would sit inside their vehicle for days on end waiting for a repair technician.

Automotive and tractor correlations have zero application here....it's apples to hotdogs comparison

 

[Scott at Roland]

Ok guys - just for the record - "Scott at Roland" really is Scott - at Roland DGA. More specifically Scott, who worked in Roland's service department for over 10 years and more recently moved to a different department to run our Imagination Center in the Boston area. I am really Scott and I really work for Roland. I am not a dealer. I am not a sales guy, or a marketing guy. I am a guy who has been on the front lines working with our dealers and customers to resolve issues for a long time. In fact, I know for sure that I've met and worked with some of the users in this forum, if not this actual string.

I hope this convinces you all that I can speak from extensive experience when it comes to servicing our printers in the field.

I will repeat what I stated in previous posts in the forum.

First, Roland has never condoned access to our service mode or Peck utility. The fact that we “never stopped it” was merely because we couldn’t stop it. A simple Google search provided all the information you needed to access the service mode. That being said, the primary reason for Peck2 was not to lock people out. It was because the new utility should ultimately help us with better service to our printers with features such as preemptive maintenance and service calls. Like a refrigerator calling the repair guy before it breaks. We aren’t there yet, but Peck2 is a step in that direction.

Second, Peck2 does not prevent users from performing the same service and maintenance activity that they always have. I understand that there are a variety of service activities that require entry into service mode, but the service we expect users to perform are not. Therefore, you can still replace a cap top, wiper, cutter strip, etc.

Third, as I mentioned before, this forum has sparked my interest. Because I saw some merit to your arguments, I communicated my thoughts to my superiors, hoping that they would be able to discuss this issue on a global basis. This is happening. This topic is being discussed as part of a global service meeting being held at our home office in Japan. I do not know the outcome of these talks, but I can tell you that I will communicate whatever information is provided to me when I can.

perfectpdf – I read the message you sent to my support team in Irvine. Please consider this post a response to that message. Please rest assured that when I know something I can communicate; I will post it here without delay – good news or bad. It’s the best I can do.

Now I am going to go take a nap. You guys are all wearing me out.

 

[ProPDF]

Ok guys - just for the record - "Scott at Roland" really is Scott - at Roland DGA. More specifically Scott, who worked in Roland's service department for over 10 years and more recently moved to a different department to run our Imagination Center in the Boston area. I am really Scott and I really work for Roland. I am not a dealer. I am not a sales guy, or a marketing guy. I am a guy who has been on the front lines

We are going to need to see some ID "Scott from Roland"

I couldn't help it.

 

[Scott at Roland]

We are going to need to see some ID "Scott from Roland"

I couldn't help it. View attachment 143280

I always thought of myself as more of a Sly Stallone type, but this will do - Thanks!

 

[-Fusion]

Any follow up on this? I own a VG540 and VG540i and have been watching this thread.

 

[player]

What a load of crap.

 

[Jester]

Regarding the automotive analogy, we live in a consumer-rights society. In the USA there is a right-to-repair law. A car maker must provide their OEM service information and tools to independent repair facilities. They do so, but clearly under duress. The price of a tablet computer with licensed OEM service software can be daunting.
With some wide and grand format printers costing as much or more than a vehicle, it seems like the same principle should apply.
I think it is in the manufacturer's interest to do this voluntarily, before government steps in and makes this mandatory and compliance becomes even more onerous.

 

[netsol]

jester,
although there are right to repair laws and efforts to comply, they are often dismal, no where near enough

the world is divided into 2 types of people, those in love with process and those in love with results

i am afraid we can expect lots and lots of process in response to this, in spite of scott's best efforts