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Roland VG to VG2 Firmware removes service mode, end user access deleted??

WildWestDesigns

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Jester said:
Regarding the automotive analogy, we live in a consumer-rights society. In the USA there is a right-to-repair law. A car maker must provide their OEM service information and tools to independent repair facilities. They do so, but clearly under duress. The price of a tablet computer with licensed OEM service software can be daunting.
With some wide and grand format printers costing as much or more than a vehicle, it seems like the same principle should apply.
I think it is in the manufacturer's interest to do this voluntarily, before government steps in and makes this mandatory and compliance becomes even more onerous.
Click to expand...


Right to repair is being stripped away, however. Under the auspice of OEM's "worried" about their IP. Computer OEMs, vehicle OEMs, machinary OEMs are all (from how it appears) jumping on the bandwagon.

Ironically, cell phones are the one thing that consumers don't seem to mind being locked out of. I find that ironic.

Software was something that we never really owned, regardless of the license (had to get that good ole source code with it), but it's becoming like we don't even own the hardware as well. That hardware that we "bought" is going to be controlled post sale as well. In terms of where/how it gets repaired. Can forget about "modding" it (this includes just plain upgrading the internals), if "you" wanted to. Forget about working on it if you "wanted" to.


I've gotten so bad as I've gotten older, that I don't like not being able to do something. Even if I may never do it, I don't like it not being an option.
 
N

netsol

Active Member
WildWestDesigns said:
Right to repair is being stripped away, however. Under the auspice of OEM's "worried" about their IP. Computer OEMs, vehicle OEMs, machinary OEMs are all (from how it appears) jumping on the bandwagon.

Ironically, cell phones are the one thing that consumers don't seem to mind being locked out of. I find that ironic.

Software was something that we never really owned, regardless of the license (had to get that good ole source code with it), but it's becoming like we don't even own the hardware as well. That hardware that we "bought" is going to be controlled post sale as well. In terms of where/how it gets repaired. Can forget about "modding" it (this includes just plain upgrading the internals), if "you" wanted to. Forget about working on it if you "wanted" to.


I've gotten so bad as I've gotten older, that I don't like not being able to do something. Even if I may never do it, I don't like it not being an option.
Click to expand...


we have fought this battle many times, in thecommercial video business we fought with and sued sony in 1978... (any time they start the sentence with "you are not allowed..." it strts all over again

the. we became computer consultants. ibm was never happier than the days before they let the hardware go open source (as400 could only run on their hardware, the original xt's were this way as well, if you remember.
 
WildWestDesigns

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
netsol said:
we have fought this battle many times, in thecommercial video business we fought with and sued sony in 1978... (any time they start the sentence with "you are not allowed..." it strts all over again

the. we became computer consultants. ibm was never happier than the days before they let the hardware go open source (as400 could only run on their hardware, the original xt's were this way as well, if you remember.
Click to expand...

286s is about as old as I go and given my age at the time, I wasn't paying attention to legal rumblings back then. Although I was more aware of the Beta Max lawsuit as that was more of what dad was talking about.

As more involved (tech wise) as some systems get, it's really going to be harder and harder on the consumer to work on these things. Unlike the olden days when even the tech was much simpler and there are a lot more loopholes to be used, combine that with our laws being woefully outdated with regard to tech in general (and then the people that are in charge of coming up with laws aren't exactly techies themselves), it's always going to be a game of catch up.
 
N

netsol

Active Member
jester,
we played a great joke on a friend in real estate, 20 yrs ago
he ordered a pc from us & wanted a 5-1/4" floppy
he sent a purchase order that said "and be sure to include one of the big floppies"
so we shipped him a system with an external 8"
not many people can appreciate the humor, these days
 
Jim Hill

Jim Hill

New Member
I understand the Roland position that they do not want the end users entering the service mode but once a printer is out of warranty I think the end user should be able to do whatever they want with their printer.
I understand Roland does not agree with this statement!

When Roland say's they will not sell Roland parts to the end user this is where this becomes a real big problem and there are only a few others places to find the parts such as China and a other countries.

Am I correct in my understanding that a Roland Dealer will no longer sells parts to an end user who comes in to purchase them?
If that is the case what's left for a Roland Dealer to sell other then brand new printers.

I know that many people don't like using parts from China and other countries but that looks to me to be the only option unless I am willing to hire a Roland Tech which gets real expensive fast.

My real life experience at hiring a Roland Tech went like this. First they told me I had to fill the forms for becoming a New customer even though I had purchased from them for over 10 years. I filled out the forms and they told me I would hear something within one week. They then told me they needed my credit card which I supplied.
About two weeks later I contacted them for when a tech would be coming out and they told me that first I had to agree to their terms as far at the cost for the service tech and the parts go.

They send me their estimate for the total costs involved which were between $1,200 and $1,300 hundred dollars along with the words this is just an estimate and that my credit card might be charged more then this. I agreed to this even though I was not happy about the costs.

After another week or so I called again and asked when a service tech would be coming out and I was told it might be a few weeks and I told them to to forget about the whole thing and I fixed the printer myself.

The reason I did not fix the printer myself in the beginning was because I had just gotten out of the hospital after having surgery.

Jim
 
M

mariusz

New Member
Though I chip in with my hope some ideas to the problem Roland is making.

Hate the idea what they doing so was thinking out of 100 ideas of what I can do to have access service mode.

idea 1, use 3rd part inks but this creates issue for these who use white ink as no 3rd part sells them so I was thinking to buy white in huge stock to last me few years and when I run out then perhaps update to TR2 :D silly but possible, unless you print lots of white then you screwed.


idea 2, just noticed you can fairly easily undo the top plastic of the ink cartridge which holds the RFID chip in it. My assumption is, not tried yet, that if you were to put TR2 inks your printer will not accept them as RFID would think incorrect inks therefore in order for these to work its why firmware is required to be updated and and the same time they will lock us out from it, silly Roland.

So simple solution for those which I think should work, is to detach all the RFID tops and mark them with colours they belong to plastic of the cartridges instead of disposing them and try stock up a couple of each colour, and order TR2 as new but detach new RFID and just reattach the ones from TR1 inks


This is my first thing I will be trying as soon as I run out of TR1 will order TR2 as sample and will put that in, in theory it all should work, as its RFID is what will tell the printer of ink change and we will swap them around.


Hope this becomes a solution to you all and hope it will work when I come to test it.
 
J

Jim Hancock

Old School Technician
To Jim Hill,
If you run into issues with your Roland, I would be able to help. I've been working on Roland printers since the first solvent printers and I can get Roland OEM parts.
 
K

keith20mm

New Member
A year later, has anything changed in the interceding year, in Roland's position on the TR to TR2 ink "value up", as to Service Mode lockout and requirement for Peck2, with the concomitant firmware "upgrade"?
 
Ultraman

Ultraman

Ultraman
Just like a car you entitled to get it service else where after warranty expire, another disadvantage of buying Roland then HP, they need to fix this issue fast as more and more are moving towards HP
 
WildWestDesigns

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Ultraman said:
Just like a car you entitled to get it service else where after warranty expire..
Click to expand...
This is actually getting to be less and less the case. A little bit whittling away that ability here and there, but pretty soon, it's going to be hard to get anything serviced even after warranty. Or at least as good as it would be from the original OEM.

As more and more devices are getting to be always needing to be connected to some home base server, a critical bit could be housed on that offsite server that would make it harder for any 3rd party (including the owner in that 3rd party, if they are willing and able) to service it. But that is the type of things that customers have bought into, but I digress.
 
balstestrat

balstestrat

Problem Solver
Ultraman said:
Just like a car you entitled to get it service else where after warranty expire, another disadvantage of buying Roland then HP, they need to fix this issue fast as more and more are moving towards HP
Click to expand...
Actually Roland is now worse than HP. HP still has everything behind a code but now on Roland you don't even have that option any longer.
 
G

Graphic Extremes

Knows To Little
I am glad that this came up in my notifications. I was going to purchase two new Roland Printers today. After reading this, I will not be buying another Roland printer period! Never again.

If I enter service mod and screw something up, I pay to have it fixed is my motto. If it voids the warranty, then it is my fault and I am responsible to pay for all repairs from that point forward...

Good Bye Roland
 
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WildWestDesigns

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Graphic Extremes said:
If I enter service mod and screw something up, I pay to have it fixed is my motto. If it voids the warranty, then it is my fault and I am responsible to pay for all repairs from that point forward...
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, most OEMs (not in just this space here) are going this way. It is going to be harder and harder to do this.

As more and more people get used to the idea of hardware/software having to be perpetually connected to the internet, it is also going to be easier to have to make it to where the hardware (via firmware) is connected for some type of finalization/authentication (much like what software goes through now and this started hitting mainstream back in early 2000s) phase that 3rd parties (including you) won't be able to do as it would be hidden under the auspice of IP and it will not be local to the machine for one to find some work around to get to it.

Also, not many people have the above motto, in fact, I would say most of the buying population doesn't think of going 3rd party or much less doing it themselves, probably doesn't even remotely enter in their mind, so they tend to in the end, not care about it. More then likely, they figure when it's a problem, they would just get a new one and be done with it (always be on the latest and greatest).

I would imagine, that in the end if "you" really want to be able to have this type of ability, it's going to get to the point of having to do some off the wall brand (and in some instances, would be totally on your own anyway) in the hopes that "your" support would allow them to grow and have a bigger selection in their offerings. In some spheres, this doesn't look like it would happen or certainly not in the near term. Especially again when the buying population doesn't care (for whatever reason, and I do get the argument of it's better money/time spend to some instances, but it all feeds into that as well)).
 
S

Sarah843

New Member
PITBULL DESIGN said:
This is pretty irritating to say the least. I've had my problem child VG for almost three years in December. At that time the warranty is up. This machine has been nothing but problems pretty much out of the gate and I wont get into all of it but many times, my supplier and Roland tech actually have me go into service mode to solve fix issues myself. Especially damper drain and fills since I have an ongoing issue with dull colors and drop out and color shift with long prints. I have recently been told by Roland reps that the new ink should help solve a lot of my issues. Cool, but I've had 7 print heads done from December 2018 to June 2019 (no they are not from head strikes). I know this POS is going to need another head or other work at some point. I've always done my own repair work on my Rolands. So what do I do? I want new inks but not at the cost of service mode since my warranty will be up. I really have no interest at this time in upgrading to a VG2 after the headache this has been. Nor am I going to pay for a tech that is barely mare qualified than I to do it.
Click to expand...
Depending on your ink configuration, there are plug and print ink options that allow you to avoid the frustration of the upgrade and potentially even "downgrade" back to the settings and ink equivalent of TR inks.
 
D

Dave Kasler

New Member
Seems fortunate that my decision last week to NOT perform the ValueUp upgrade has paid off. I've been using an alternative ink that has been working great. Except the vendor had an issue with getting the ink from the UK and I nearly was out of ink. My real concern is that I'm in a remote part of Ohio and the nearest tech is 3 hours away. The travel time expense alone makes it impossible to afford a tech to come here for minor adjustments. Luckily, the vendor I purchased the VG540 from is more than willing to talk me through adjustments and repairs.

Been a Roland customer since 2008 when I bought my first VP540. Then upgraded to the VG540 a couple years ago. Will I continue to be a Roland customer down the road. Likely not.

But at least I can still stay with the old ink that's working well.
 
D

Drummer1

New Member
I am a service tech and I just want to say Roland did this without telling customers this lockout was hidden in the Ink firmware update.
This is why they told customers that they can do this without a service tech.
My customer didn't want nore had the time to do it.
Be forever I went out I looked into this ink update and found a compliant online that warned about this lockout.
I told the customer and they call Roland and was told they had no choice but to install it as the old would not be available.
And they have been trying to sell extended warranty's to them after locking out people who nolong have one on there printers.
The fact that this was hidden and not disclosed and trying to sell warranty's after they locked them out is nothing more then fraud.
Everyone who has a Roland should get together and file a class action lawsuit agenst Roland for this overt Deception in fraud.
 
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