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Need Help selling files to competitor/customer

equippaint

Active Member
This is a bit confusing. How would the same design firm be involved in a bid that you are now not involved in? If the design bid was separate and that part is complete, then why are they still involved? There is only 1 contract winner, is it the printer or the design firm? If the design firm is out of it, why would they waste their time?
If the design firm won it again and selected another print company, then send them some low res bitmap saved as a pdf. Really, in any situation Id send them either some weird file type or a bmp in pdf format. Then play dumb... it worked fine for me this is all I got. Or keep sending them the original file. Then play dumb again like you must have not saved it right or overwrote it.
 

Patentagosse

New Member
I understand your situation. It sounds like you are good with a certain contractor BUT in this case that contractor did not get this job. SO the new guy is asking for your files to complete a new mural.......NO!

The government is not loyal to anyone except the lowest bid on totem pole. As you mentioned you lost a bid because he bid $200 lower. YOU did the work and you need to be compensated OR no one gets files!


+1
 

bigben

Not a newbie
The problem in the startup process was the customer (government) was not clear on the design. In the bid, they stated that the image purchased would involved minor changes. So we assume that it was an image, just some cropping and put it in black & white for example. We allowed one hour do do so. But in reality, they wanted something that no purchased image could fit or require too much changes and was better to just design it from scratch. Before designing anything, we told the interior designer that more time would be consumed to have custom files. She did not want to charge the extra to the customer and told me to add the time on the second phase of the project. When they started the bid for the second part of the project, they just wrote the same thing. I knew even if I had the file, it would require some time to modify the file. So I've bid an X amount for those changes and added the time I've used on the first part of the project. So this is probably the difference between my price and the other bidder because I know they allowed and X amount of dollars to purchase the images and only one hour to make the modifications.

So after discussing with the interior designer (the customer that hire me for the first project and still work on the second phase), the idea was to ''sell'' my image to the customer (gouvernement) for the amount of my overtime used in the design (only 4 hours of design time). The customer refused to buy the image because they stated they would not use it after that. So now, it's between me and the other shop. If I don't give/sell the file to the other shop, they will have to redesign everything based on the proof I've sent to the interior designer and customer. In that scenario, the interior designer (that I do regular business with) will not be happy because they will have to babysit the other shop and work with them to get the files done. I don't really care about the customer or the other shop. It is more the good relationship with the interior designer that is my problem.
 

GaSouthpaw

Profane and profane accessories.
Regardless of your customer (the designer) asking you to "add the time on the second phase of the project," there was never any guarantee that you were going to secure that second phase- correct? If your customer (again, the designer) didn't sign off on a contract saying something along the lines of them being responsible for design fees in excess of the initial estimate and you think you're going to get the business out of them to make up for it, you might as well chalk this up as a learning experience and give your customer the appropriate file. You can then either add the charge into the cost of the next work you do for them to make up for it or write it off.
However, if you don't think (or care) if this designer is worth ever doing business with again, then...
You fulfilled your contract with the designer, yes? As in, all the work's been done? And your drawings/proofs/etc. clearly state that said artwork that you created is your property, and there was no proviso for providing the designer with a digital copy of the artwork? Then, the answer is- if you don't pay for it, I'm not giving it to you.
Again, this option is meant more for the attitude that you don't care if the designer ever does business with you again.
 

fresh

New Member
wait, the other shop is expecting you to provide them files for free? nope.

and even though you have a good relationship with the interior designer, how is she not screwing you over? she said "just add the design time into phase 2" without a contract for it, and now she thinks she can get it for free? She should be ponying up the artwork charge.
 

equippaint

Active Member
Its annoying but it's still only 4 hours, 1 of which you already accounted for. You're not going to recoup those 3 hours. Is it worth losing a customer over money that you are never going to see?
Just keep in mind that whatever you decide to do, that you are doing it 100% for yourself, its either out of principal or to save yourself a customer. Either way, you're not doing this for them.
 

Sign consultant

New Member
why dont you ask them the quote they have got and match that one to retain the business.
Try to speak with them and if you have a cost on design and you did not put in the estimate/quote or proposed design free so you have to be in a win/win situation tell them we can manage your design and changes and charge for modification.
be patience they will come to you again.
Best of luck
 

spectrum maine

New Member
Send them a low res jpeg. This happens all the time. tell the customer to have the new company contact you if there are any problems. When they do, sell the low ballers the file directly.
 

HandsomeBob

New Member
OK so now is the time to be vicious.

  1. Forward on only copies of the files your originally received to make them re-do all your work.
  2. Make reasonable but low dpi bit maps out of all the vectored images.
  3. Change the PMS call outs to CMYK. And of course change some of the cmyk values - just slightly.
  4. Take the ax tool and make a hundred cuts through the vectored images. They still look and print OK but but the fun begins when they try and cut them.
  5. Claim a crash and the files are lost
  6. Convert all the fonts to curves and don't forward the names of the fonts. Use a really obscure font that they will have to buy.

So much for the fun. Even if you told the client at the end of the last job that you should not be contacted for the files with the new contract is awarded to the other guy - you are in the loosing position. You have a local reputation to maintain. You not being helpful will get around and you will end up being the looser.
 

player

New Member
Tell them the artwork is yours and you don't give out artwork. If they want to use the images they buy the whole product or nothing. Why cooperate? It's like the American workers having to spend the last few weeks before getting laid off training the Mexican worker who is getting the same job when the factory relocates to Mexico.
 

signbrad

New Member
This thread has a nice range of opinions and I tend to agree with all of them, depending on the client and the circumstances.

I have given away design work before for different reasons. To hold on to a client or make him feel appreciated. Or when I knew another part of the job would more than make up for it. Or sometimes, when I didn't clearly make a client understand what I needed from the beginning and so I felt it wasn't their fault that I had to tweak a file.

Four hours is, in my opinion, a big chunk of time to give away. If you have a number of employees carrying overhead, maybe you feel four hours is not that much to bury. But if you're working by yourself, losing four hours can be painful. Jack Wills, a veteran sign guy who has worked a lot by himself, said once, "I gotta meet the payroll. You know what I mean?" He was referring to his own payroll.

Four hours is the time length for an installation job for many sign projects. Are you willing to throw in installation for free to keep a customer happy? Because the customer didn't know it was not included? Maybe some of us would. Others would not. Maybe it depends on the client and the circumstances.

Who owns production files?

Who really owns production files created by a shop employee on shop equipment? The shop owns them, not the client, even though the client may have paid for the design. Proof of that ownership is the fact that the shop owner has the right to delete the files if he or she wishes. The client has no say in this.

Years ago I lettered trucks for a lawn service. They had trucks of various sizes and regularly replaced or repainted them. They were a steady customer and I made a lot of money off them over the years. I had made three different sized pounce patterns and used them till they were in tatters. I remade one, a big one, out of Tyvek so it would last a long time. It was for their big tankers.
They asked me once to give them "their" patterns. They said they wanted to try lettering a truck themselves. I refused, explaining that the patterns were shop tools that I used to get their work done in a timely manner.
If a carpenter builds your house, he still owns his hammer, right? Would you even ask to borrow his hammer to add a garage yourself? The idea is absurd. The lawn service's shop foreman, a mechanic, understood immediately that their request was not reasonable.
I lost the account, but I probably would have lost it anyway. I knew they could have easily acquired another sign painter at less cost, especially if they enticed him ready-made pounce patterns that I had given. In the end, they used someone else anyway. But he made his own patterns.

Working for free

I just had my oil changed and the manager told me they put in a new drain plug at no charge. It was a small thing. It cost them pennies and no extra labor. But I will use them again because of that.
I give freebies, too. If I create sawdust on the carpet while drilling, I sometimes vacuum their entire lobby. I have been known to take a client's truck to the car wash before lettering the doors. Small things, but they can make a good impression. If I were to tell a client that I "gave" them fours hours of free labor, however, they might be skeptical. If your oil change place told you they flushed and charged your AC system at no charge, how would you react? Your first question might be "Why?" Or, you might even have a hard time believing them.

When I give a client free time, it's usually something small and I always tell them about it. If I give a client design time that is something more than a tweak, I tell them ahead of time, maybe mentioning what it's worth, and explain that I'm doing it to encourage them to give me more of the job. I might even ask if they are pretty confident I will get the rest of the work.
I sometimes explain to a client that I'm even willing to sell my modified design to them in case they end up having someone else do the next phase of the job. Of course, it's not always easy to think about all this ahead of time, especially in the rush of trying to meet a deadline.

Obviously, I did not offer to sell pounce patterns to clients back in the day, but I will do that with files now.
The key, I think, is to talk to the client about the file issue at the beginning.
It's also good to always assume that you may not get the second phase of the job, or even repeat jobs.

..........................

Who owns a graphic design?

On a related note, when we create sign layouts, graphic layouts, are they protected by copyright? Do we really own them as intellectual property? Most of us assume so. But the reality is that much of what we create in the sign business does not meet the US Copyright Office's standards for receiving copyright protection. Sign layouts that consist of nothing more than lettering and simple shapes, even if the letters are stylized or embellished, may not be protected.
Once design work goes out the door, we may still claim ownership, but there may not be much we can do if the client decides to use it without permission. A copyright notice on the drawing of the design may not hold much weight if the design itself is not protectable.
The best course is to not allow design work out of our possession without some kind of payment and to do as little as possible on "speculation."
.....................

Artist/attorney Linda Joy Katwinkel has written on this problem of graphic layouts not qualifying for copyright protection:
Registering Your Copyright in Graphic Design: Fighting Back if the Copyright Office Says No | Graphic Artists Guild

If any on this forum have actually applied for and received copyright registration for sign designs/layouts, it would be a great benefit to post the circumstances here.


Brad in Kansas City
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
This thread has a nice range of opinions and I tend to agree with all of them, depending on the client and the circumstances.

I have given away design work before for different reasons. To hold on to a client or make him feel appreciated. Or when I knew another part of the job would more than make up for it. Or sometimes, when I didn't clearly make a client understand what I needed from the beginning and so I felt it wasn't their fault that I had to tweak a file.

Four hours is, in my opinion, a big chunk of time to give away. If you have a number of employees carrying overhead, maybe you feel four hours is not that much to bury. But if you're working by yourself, losing four hours can be painful. Jack Wills, a veteran sign guy who has worked a lot by himself, said once, "I gotta meet the payroll. You know what I mean?" He was referring to his own payroll.

Four hours is the time length for an installation job for many sign projects. Are you willing to throw in installation for free to keep a customer happy? Because the customer didn't know it was not included? Maybe some of us would. Others would not. Maybe it depends on the client and the circumstances.

Who owns production files?

Who really owns production files created by a shop employee on shop equipment? The shop owns them, not the client, even though the client may have paid for the design. Proof of that ownership is the fact that the shop owner has the right to delete the files if he or she wishes. The client has no say in this.

Years ago I lettered trucks for a lawn service. They had trucks of various sizes and regularly replaced or repainted them. They were a steady customer and I made a lot of money off them over the years. I had made three different sized pounce patterns and used them till they were in tatters. I remade one, a big one, out of Tyvek so it would last a long time. It was for their big tankers.
They asked me once to give them "their" patterns. They said they wanted to try lettering a truck themselves. I refused, explaining that the patterns were shop tools that I used to get their work done in a timely manner.
If a carpenter builds your house, he still owns his hammer, right? Would you even ask to borrow his hammer to add a garage yourself? The idea is absurd. The lawn service's shop foreman, a mechanic, understood immediately that their request was not reasonable.
I lost the account, but I probably would have lost it anyway. I knew they could have easily acquired another sign painter at less cost, especially if they enticed him ready-made pounce patterns that I had given. In the end, they used someone else anyway. But he made his own patterns.

Working for free

I just had my oil changed and the manager told me they put in a new drain plug at no charge. It was a small thing. It cost them pennies and no extra labor. But I will use them again because of that.
I give freebies, too. If I create sawdust on the carpet while drilling, I sometimes vacuum their entire lobby. I have been known to take a client's truck to the car wash before lettering the doors. Small things, but they can make a good impression. If I were to tell a client that I "gave" them fours hours of free labor, however, they might be skeptical. If your oil change place told you they flushed and charged your AC system at no charge, how would you react? Your first question might be "Why?" Or, you might even have a hard time believing them.

When I give a client free time, it's usually something small and I always tell them about it. If I give a client design time that is something more than a tweak, I tell them ahead of time, maybe mentioning what it's worth, and explain that I'm doing it to encourage them to give me more of the job. I might even ask if they are pretty confident I will get the rest of the work.
I sometimes explain to a client that I'm even willing to sell my modified design to them in case they end up having someone else do the next phase of the job. Of course, it's not always easy to think about all this ahead of time, especially in the rush of trying to meet a deadline.

Obviously, I did not offer to sell pounce patterns to clients back in the day, but I will do that with files now.
The key, I think, is to talk to the client about the file issue at the beginning.
It's also good to always assume that you may not get the second phase of the job, or even repeat jobs.

..........................

Who owns a graphic design?

On a related note, when we create sign layouts, graphic layouts, are they protected by copyright? Do we really own them as intellectual property? Most of us assume so. But the reality is that much of what we create in the sign business does not meet the US Copyright Office's standards for receiving copyright protection. Sign layouts that consist of nothing more than lettering and simple shapes, even if the letters are stylized or embellished, may not be protected.
Once design work goes out the door, we may still claim ownership, but there may not be much we can do if the client decides to use it without permission. A copyright notice on the drawing of the design may not hold much weight if the design itself is not protectable.
The best course is to not allow design work out of our possession without some kind of payment and to do as little as possible on "speculation."
.....................

Artist/attorney Linda Joy Katwinkel has written on this problem of graphic layouts not qualifying for copyright protection:
Registering Your Copyright in Graphic Design: Fighting Back if the Copyright Office Says No | Graphic Artists Guild

If any on this forum have actually applied for and received copyright registration for sign designs/layouts, it would be a great benefit to post the circumstances here.


Brad in Kansas City

This is great information but all he really needed was a contract... at the very least something in writing - even after the fact - so there is no misunderstanding.
You can state who owns what, when the transfer takes place and what happens when the job goes south... it doesn't have to be a big deal.

All I do is design so I have to get paid for my services, but I work for sign shops who design on spec - but they still pay me for my work.
Some shops eat a certain percentage of jobs that never get sold, yes other shops will copy the design, sometimes they will ask for it... my main sign shop client sends it over... it works for them. I could never do it... which is probably why I don't own a sign shop...

I don't allow clients to dictate how I run my business - they would never have a chance to say to comp it on the next job... I would rather them ask me to design for free. Carrot dangling does not work for me... if they are already a good client, I would eat this because I was not clear on MY terms...
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
I agree with Rick and Signbrad. "Catch ya next time" is not good business to be doing with the client.
And I think you will agree with that now that you have experienced it.
Like being a bellhop and lugging 10 suitcases up to the 20th floor and the guy gives you a dollar and tells you he will catch you next time. You avoid him like the plague and make sure not to do anything for him.
People take advantage of someone with talent, its been going on for a long time. There is always going to be that next customer who will try it. One talented person to ten thousand hucksters is the ratio. Read that tidbit in some guy's new business book called "Watch Your As* Because No One Else Will".
 

Oroscoe

New Member
1. Take what you were charged for the design plus any lost time and put 50% on top.
or
2. Sell them a one time use license of the art and retain ownership of the artwork.
 

DerbyCitySignGuy

New Member
People take advantage of someone with talent, its been going on for a long time. There is always going to be that next customer who will try it.

Hit the nail on the head. Everybody here has to have heard, "this will be good exposure for you/your company" at least once, if not multiple times.
 

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
The problem in the startup process was the customer (government) was not clear on the design. In the bid, they stated that the image purchased would involved minor changes. So we assume that it was an image, just some cropping and put it in black & white for example. We allowed one hour do do so. But in reality, they wanted something that no purchased image could fit or require too much changes and was better to just design it from scratch. Before designing anything, we told the interior designer that more time would be consumed to have custom files. She did not want to charge the extra to the customer and told me to add the time on the second phase of the project. When they started the bid for the second part of the project, they just wrote the same thing. I knew even if I had the file, it would require some time to modify the file. So I've bid an X amount for those changes and added the time I've used on the first part of the project. So this is probably the difference between my price and the other bidder because I know they allowed and X amount of dollars to purchase the images and only one hour to make the modifications.

So after discussing with the interior designer (the customer that hire me for the first project and still work on the second phase), the idea was to ''sell'' my image to the customer (gouvernement) for the amount of my overtime used in the design (only 4 hours of design time). The customer refused to buy the image because they stated they would not use it after that. So now, it's between me and the other shop. If I don't give/sell the file to the other shop, they will have to redesign everything based on the proof I've sent to the interior designer and customer. In that scenario, the interior designer (that I do regular business with) will not be happy because they will have to babysit the other shop and work with them to get the files done. I don't really care about the customer or the other shop. It is more the good relationship with the interior designer that is my problem.

It's a tough judgment call your having to make. You may stand on whats right and explain to the interior design whats going on and that you'd be more then happy to sell the design to the other shop. The interior designer may just understand and be totally fine with it.

I've lately been getting cheesed at not being compensated for design time, and people seem to CONSTANTLY expect that labor for free. Now, I'm not going to nickel and dime a large job but 4 hours designing...that's a big job! That's the entire time between breakfast and lunch! I feel like if you really want to get paid on it and want to keep the interior designer happy, you could come up with a way to schmooze them into understanding and keep them happy.

"Don't spend all afternoon redoing that logo, I already invested 4 hours doing it, just buy it from us and save yourself the time and headache! I wish I could just give it to you but you know, I keep asking the power company to just give me their power and they keep sending bills!"
 

fortnight8

New Member
So we have done 2 murals for a customer (company own by the government) and we were hire by the contractor to do the job. The design of those murals were 100% custom and we had to make many modifications requested by the designer and customer. We ended up with 4 hours design time extra. We knew a new project would come up so we could put the extra design time on the next job and the designer agreed with us.

So we bid on the next job but it's not the same contractor that win the bid and want to use another print shop to print and install the 4 murals this time. Now the designer is asking to have the files and give them to the other print shop.

The designer firm is a good customer for us. I don't want them to be in troubles, but I don't want to give the files either. So I was thinking of maybe sell the files for the lost time we have put into the design.

How should I manage this?

Hello,
I think 4 hours is nothing to invest in a relationship if we talk about a good customer. Though if you would have been worked with that design much more (10-20 hours), if i were you, i would sell it them. And your customer would have to be understanding.
 
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