Sharing art with Competition??

[SCOTTD]

What would you do??

We occasionally have a client call and say they are having their logo put in a magazine. Here is the issue the company that does the layouts for the magazine is our unfriendly competition, they do signage too. I have in the past e-mailed over a logo or 2 only to find out once they have the logo they try to steal my client!!

Here is how they go about putting me under the gun, they tell client to call me and ask to send it to them instaed of them calling and asking for it, So if I tell the clent no they get pissed at me!!

I do want to accomidate my clients but I sure as heck dont wont to send them directly to my competitor that plays by these tactics.

We usually don't charge for a logo when the client places and order with us, I know I should charge for a logo design but let's be totally honest how many really get to charge for a logo?
In a perfect world we would get a couple hundred bucks or more.

We do have other shops we work with and have an agreement not to approach each others clients.

My thoughts are to tell the client we can send over the logo however we do charge the shop for this 25- 50 bucks whatever it may be..

I feel, why should I give them my tools for free if they are making money with the info I send over to them?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Does anyone have an idea how to handle this and not piss off the client I don't mind if the competition doesn't like it..

 

[Pat Whatley]

All I can suggest is to send the logo as a jpeg in the actual print size, whatever that's going to be for the magazine. It's a tricky situation to be in.

One other option is to explain to your customer that you own the copyright to all the work you've done...explain to them why it has value and that you'd have to bill them accordingly for getting someone else to use your work...but then tell them you'll make a one time exception for them since you like them and appreciate the work they've given you. You come out with a stronger relationship with them, you're establishing a value for what you're giving them, and you're letting them know gently that if they get someone else to use it they're gonna pay. Then, when you send the artwork over get the other shop to sign off on a "one time use copyright release" stating exactly how your artwork can be used.

Just a thought.

 

[Dave Drane]

I don't think you have much choice except to tell your customer that you own all artwork, and unless he wants to pay for something that you have created using thousands of dollars worth of tools and resources, then he must pay for it, otherwise you will use your own knowledge and tools to do it at a much better rate than buging it from you.

 

[Poconopete]

What would you do??

We usually don't charge for a logo when the client places and order with us, I know I should charge for a logo design but let's be totally honest how many really get to charge for a logo?
In a perfect world we would get a couple hundred bucks or more.

Tell them there is a charge to transfer the file for their ad. Also add that you own the art work and any unauthorized use is a copyright infringement.

Get paid for any logo you create. Time to start living in the perfect world, charge for it.

 

[SCOTTD]

Dave,
I totally agree with you and when you tell a client that he has to buy a logo that you created for a sign that he bought and paid for you'll piss him off imediately, I know I have tried that angle and it don't matter how much you sugar coat the explanation all he hears is you telling him NO.
And guess who's standing there waiting to make your client happy..

I am serious I respect your suggestion and would love to follow that giudline but EVERYTIME it has made me out to look like the bad guy..
In the client's eye.

That is why the competitior has the client call and make the request.

The competitor already knows if they call me they ain't getting it..

 

[agunn]

... you could watermark your work....

or you could even charge an astronomical amount, if they want it that bad they will pay up and you have made your profit .. if they dont pay up that you art work is safe

just my .02

 

[cOrKinSA]

...We usually don't charge for a logo when the client places and order with us, I know I should charge for a logo design but let's be totally honest how many really get to charge for a logo?
In a perfect world we would get a couple hundred bucks or more.
...

As much as you don't want to hear it, that's really where the problem is.
If you would have charged accordingly and stuck to the professional route rather then give them a price break here and there in the beginning you would already made as much business from them as you could before they jumped ship with you. It happens everywhere and sometimes often, but you must NEVER give into to discounts such as these. I say this out of experience.
Read my second signature below oh and hey... the first one goes without saying!

 

[Techman]

I totally agree with you and when you tell a client that he has to buy a logo that you created for a sign that he bought and paid for you'll piss him off imediately, I know I have tried that angle and it don't matter how much you sugar coat the explanation

Then its time to change the explanation and your posture about your business. If you want more respect you have to make it so...

Also, Its time to call Jon Aston a member here who is a trusted asvisor to many here... He will advise you on how to make these changes.

There is your answer.

 

[Border]

I would choose to just send the artwork file directly to the ad company that is requesting it, and embed it in a PDF document that also contains the legal stuff explaining that any unauthorized use, outside of the particular ad they are producing, constitutes copyright infringement.
Don't make a big deal of it to your client, but let the other company know in no uncertain terms, that the artwork is yours and you will seek judgement against unauthorized use if warranted.

PS... and do it quickly so your client sees that you are always there to help them when they need it. I don't think it's a good idea to make it look like you are trying to hijack your clients logo. That's just my approach. Try to retain your clients through great customer service rather than through legal talk.

 

[Border]

PS...S..,
and don't give your initial design work away for free either!

 

[SCOTTD]

Thanks for the replies!!

BorderPatrol I think has nailed it.. send the file along with all the Legal jargon for the competitor to sign.

Techman is correct too, I need to be more clear with my clients that I own the logo until they buy it.

 

[Border]

Thanks for the replies!!

I need to be more clear with my clients that I own the logo until they buy it.

I would suggest to include some sort of text or notation that lets your client know that, in each and every email/ design proposal when you are first getting established with them. That will help to avoid the awkwardness of trying to tell them later on, that the artwork belongs to you until they pay for the rights to it.

 

[SignManiac]

Don't be so paranoid. Just send your competitor the only version you keep on file, a 27k .jpg. That should be sufficient enough for them to work with. That's what I would do!

 

[Sign_Boy]

I think Pat & BorderPatrol hit the nail on the head.
Let them know that the art does not belong to them and if it is used they will have major issues. If they are a stand up shop you should have no issues.

Best of luck!!

 

[Flame]

We usually don't charge for a logo when the client places and order with us, I know I should charge for a logo design but let's be totally honest how many really get to charge for a logo?

You're kidding, right? I don't usually get away with small fee's, like art transfer fee's etc.... but ALWAYS get money for a logo design. Giving away a logo is a sign of desperation IMO, like walking into a new Best Buy and they come out to you and give you a free stereo system, grinning cheesily, obviously wanting you to go buy more. But hey, why buy more? You got a free stereo, you're going to go hook it up, and when you need a DVD player to go with it you'll more than likely just end up at WalMart.

If you're making a real logo, charge for it!

Which would solve this situation. When your customer pays for a logo, you give it to them on a disc with all the formats they need, and they can do what they want with it.

JMO, but I think it's time for a slight change in shop practices, which should solve this issue with the least amount of hurt feelings.

 

[Former member]

You need to learn to place more value on the design and not just the signs you make.
Flame nailed it...
If you give away your design work your telling your customer that it's not worth anything at all.

 

[Rick]

We usually don't charge for a logo when the client places and order with us, I know I should charge for a logo design but let's be totally honest how many really get to charge for a logo?

I do... 99% is sign and logo design work only... you are assuming it is "industry standard" that design work is given away to sell signs, it is not. it is a sales tool that has a lot of risk to the sign shop and only benefits for the client.

You need to get paid enough for the design either through the sale of the sign or by charging for the design In the case of a logo, you need a policy for the client to use the logo for their other uses and this should be spelled out and agreed upon before the logo is designed or money exchanged.

 

[iSign]

"be honest, how many really charge...?"

As Rick and Flame and others said... WE CHARGE!! ...maybe some of us had to work up to it over time, but you are among professionals, and as such we all like to be compensated for our work. As with yourself, and many of us in our early days, it takes time to learn the best business practices, and to stand our ground.

Like with anything, people want to know what they are buying before they buy it. Some of us consider "design fees" to be built into a sign quote, some of us don't mind a very basic sign layout being adopted by the client for other uses... but many of us feel like a business identity that comes out of our basic sign layout shouldn't be used by the shop down the street to makes signs that we would have rather seen ordered from us... so WE need to be proactive to minimize the risk of that, by being UPFRONT with copyright policy. It's not a slap in the face, and it's not a "NO" if it is simply part of the way design work is discussed, or sold.

 

[Air Art Girl]

We charge for design and for putting the files onto a disc. If I do any file work and don't charge, they don't own it. I do charge them for a file conversion fee which I explain is a process I have to do in order to create a file in a format to produce end product. The file I create is only a tool for my use. If they want a copy of it, there are additional charges.

 

[high impact]

Let's be honest then.

We charge for artwork but shops who don't recognize that a design is product don't. I had a customer wake me up to the fact that many customers expect their sign shop to do "free" layouts for them about 4-5 years ago. This customer was one of my largest customers in the history of my business and he told me he expected "design" work for free. I told him that we do charge for design work and don't design for free but this was after the job had been started and artwork revised about 8 times! I was in the middle of this huge job with the company so I placed all design work into the sign costs. I then immediately created a contract that we have modified a few times and use to this day that clearly spells out design and artwork charges.