Shop owner passed away...what happens to copyright?

[Stacey K]

A good friend of mine has an apparel shop in a small town. The local sign shop owner passed away. She contacted the wife about possibly buying the equipment. She met with her today and the gal wants $150,000. From my understanding, it includes a "struggling" Roland 54" printer, laminator, plotters, tons of vinyl, sign blanks, 1 geo knight press, a direct to garment printer and the files. The lady told her that she's mostly paying for the copyright of the logos, not the equipment.

My friend told her she isn't that interested in the logos since she can replicate them if needed at a minimal cost. The gal said she cannot replicate any logo or any vehicles because everything is copyrighted. The gal got real pissy with her. Does she think she has all the customers over a barrel now and any sign shops? Does she? So, let's say Joe's Garage had a new truck ready for lettering and now the man sadly passed away. So, he can't go anywhere else and have it lettered to match his other trucks unless he calls this lady and buys the artwork? I'm not sure how that works. She's already gotten some calls for a few things because they were the only 2 in town who did anything with vinyl.

Thoughts?

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I'm sure a 5 minute consultation with a lawyer would bring her back down to earth.

 

[Gino]

Copyrights will go to whomever she wants it to go to for whatever cost she deems rightful, if it wasn't stipulated in a will. No one can legally use those copyrighted articles, unless an agreement is reached. The lady will probably soon find out, she'll never get it and settle for much less. Equipment is only worth a fraction. She's holding the equipment hostage. Make an honest assessment and have her make a realistic offer. Take it or leave on a once and done meeting. Tell her, your next offer will be for less, as she finds out what the stuff is really worth.

 

[Billct2]

Good luck to the widow trying to enforce questionable copyrights, not that it couldn't be done but it takes a lot of time and money to do it.
And she's dreaming if she thinks she can get that kind of money for a one person shop with crap equipment.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Copyrights will go to whomever she wants it to go to for whatever cost she deems rightful, if it wasn't stipulated in a will. No one can legally use those copyrighted articles, unless an agreement is reached. The lady will probably soon find out, she'll never get it and settle for much less. Equipment is only worth a fraction. She's holding the equipment hostage. Make an honest assessment and have her make a realistic offer. Take it or leave on a once and done meeting. Tell her, your next offer will be for less, as she finds out what the stuff is really worth.

How do you prove how they were obtained? Theres no telling if or what they created vs what were client supplied files. Without the old man around, there would be no witness. People like that with unrealistic expectations end up taking it to the grave

 

[Gino]

There's always that possibility, but if the widow thinks she can prove it in a court of law, she can do whatever she wants and util then, they are all off limits until proven otherwise.

Problem is...... these customers are all gonna go somewhere and how would you know who went where and when ?? Some of them could've gone by the wayside while the guy was still alive. Ya win some, ya lose some. However, this widow has someone whispering in her ear that she's sitting on a possible pile-a-money. If she doesn't off it soon, she'll be out entirely. The way the cookie crumbles.

As in stacey's hypothetical..... if a customer wants to go somewhere else, that widow cannot interfere with his making a living. He'll either be nice and have the new sign shop alter it.... or make the widow prove it. It ain't gonna be worth her doing that, so she ought to give in while she can get a little something.

 

[rjssigns]

Signs shops are only worth what you can get for the equipment and or real estate. This is because people only shop price and will go wherever thus making the client list and copyrights all but worthless.

 

[James Burke]

Perhaps his assets were in a trust. That could complicate things.

JB

 

[Stacey K]

I agree with everyone here, the copyrights are worth nothing at this point. I really think I would stay away from the printer if it's not newer. I'm not sure the vinyl rolls are really worth much either. As more time passes, I think we use less and less cut vinyl and more printed vinyl, which makes that cut vinyl only worth it if you have a customer that can use a specific color.

Thanks all, I'll pass this on to her, I do think she can grab a few things and negotiate a nice price. If not, she isn't out anything. It never hurts to try!

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I'd be even less inclined to buy someone out if there was little competition. What are you getting? The customers aren't under contract nor are they a trade secret. Can you even copyright a logo? It's a trademark and the person who owns the business would be considered the owner of the trademark, not the person who made it. If the company used their mockups and never paid for the service then that sign company could go after them for theft of services or some sort of damages but that would be about it. As far as I I know, trademarks deal with usage and can include more than just the mark itself where as copyright is for actual copy and pictures? JLG sued a chinese manufacturer who started selling scissor lifts here that were orange and tan and won because it can cause confusion. I believe you also have to register trademarks which would put pretty much every small business out of that area of protection

 

[Stacey K]

I'd be even less inclined to buy someone out if there was little competition. What are you getting? The customers aren't under contract nor are they a trade secret. Can you even copyright a logo? It's a trademark and the person who owns the business would be considered the owner of the trademark, not the person who made it. If the company used their mockups and never paid for the service then that sign company could go after them for theft of services or some sort of damages but that would be about it. As far as I I know, trademarks deal with usage and can include more than just the mark itself where as copyright is for actual copy and pictures? JLG sued a chinese manufacturer who started selling scissor lifts here that were orange and tan and won because it can cause confusion. I believe you also have to register trademarks which would put pretty much every small business out of that area of protection

That's what I was thinking in regards to the business owner actually owning their own logo and you could only go after the mock up

 

[CanuckSigns]

So is she under the impression that any of her husband's clients NEED to use her files? Most sign shops are used to recreating layouts to match existing trucks etc, so he files are worth whatever art charge another shop would charge to recreate it from scratch.

I feel bad for her, possibly her husband talked a big game about how important he was, but unless you have contracts in place, or systems that allow for turn key operations your business is only worth equipment + real estate.

 

[thesignpost]

I agree with everyone here, the copyrights are worth nothing at this point. I really think I would stay away from the printer if it's not newer. I'm not sure the vinyl rolls are really worth much either. As more time passes, I think we use less and less cut vinyl and more printed vinyl, which makes that cut vinyl only worth it if you have a customer that can use a specific color.

Thanks all, I'll pass this on to her, I do think she can grab a few things and negotiate a nice price. If not, she isn't out anything. It never hurts to try!

Yep< I agree as well. But in order to enforce a copyright, the entity needs to alive, for one or if it's part of a corporation they would enforce it. I think it's kinda moot.

 

[Gino]

What many of you don't realize is the parameters have changed somewhat. The creation of a logo, brand or combination of such can be considered copyrighted, just by the mere thought of it. Laying out of words or graphics does not constitute a copyrighted piece of property, for the creator or the end user. Again, if these files were treated properly, the customer already owns the rights and the sign guy was already compensated for them. If not, now there is no real proof one way or the other. It would be a very grey area in the law. Besides, these copyrights are are only good for about 70 years.

I too, feel bad for the widow. Perhaps she has no idea, but this little bird whispering in her ear has her immediate attention.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

It is definitely a gray area but you are right that even ideas have some sort of protection. There was a guy that approached Disney about the wide world of sports concept and after hearing the idea, told him they were not interested. Not long after, Disney built it. He sued and won. Like any other lawsuit, one side has to have the money to pursue it and the other side has to have the money to take from them. It doesn't work well if those 2 things are not present. I'm not condoning stealing anyone's stuff by any means but to me there is a difference in how you go about it, legal, ethical or not. If ABC plumbing shows up and says hey, here is my van, I need this logo on the one I just bought, I would do it. If someone brought me a printed out mockup that was obviously done by another company and said hey can you make this for me, I would have some questions and likely tell them they have to send me the files. Even if you don't get sued, you don't want to be that guy around town. At least I don't

 

[Johnny Best]

Here’s a widow who knew exactly nothing about her husband’s business. She saw the lawyer for his will and found out she had nothing w worth anything and took some legal far fetched advice. The wife is selling a clunker in a used car lot.

 

[binki]

IMO the customer list with the artwork is the most valuable part, nothing else.

 

[visual800]

Another "I did your artwork and you're with me for life" story. The files are worth nothing, the equipment is worth nothing and the "so called" copyright is worth nothing. This person is delusional as to what she thinks she owns. Any other company with skills can replicate what any client needs, within reason of course. She may find some idiot that will overpay here for her useless items. Me sitting here thinking I wouldnt offer anything for what was described

What good are copyrighted files if the client decides t not use you again?

 

[gabagoo]

So your telling me that every logo this guy designed he actually spent the time and money to copyright? Am I missing something here?

 

[Stacey K]

So your telling me that every logo this guy designed he actually spent the time and money to copyright? Am I missing something here?

I think what happened is the man passed away, my friend inquired mostly about the vinyl printer and then the lady told her she didn't want to part anything out and that she would have a meeting with her after she got things settled.

I'm guessing the lady thinks she has leverage over this sale by saying everything is copyrighted, to "force" my friend into buying everything since she's the only competition in town. The lady probably knows everyone will start going to my friend. If my friend was stupid, which she's not, she might be scared into thinking either she has to buy all these copyrights or she has to turn all this business away.

One more facet to this is that the business was connected to the house so there's no real-estate to sell. I think she would be better off trying to part it all out on EBay. Can't blame her for trying to get a mint for it I guess!