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Shrinking Material causing failures

Discussion in 'Vinyl' started by Signature Sign Guys, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Signature Sign Guys

    Signature Sign Guys Member

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    Apr 11, 2018
    Kamloops BC
    Hey All,

    we have been having issues with some of our prints failing within the first month after install. The edges have been curling up and dirt and water have been causing them to left more. We were told it was due to over saturation so we changed our print profile. It continued to happen. Then we were told its due to much tension when laminating. We changed the tension. After another month or so we thought we were fine but we now have another job coming back saying its starting to peel up. We are at a loss of what could be causing this and our suppliers do not know what is happening either.

    We had a print sit for a month or so in the shop as we waiting to do the install and we noticed it has shrunk and started to do the curl and wondering if anyone else has run into this issue. We used an orajet 3620 (i think) with oraguard 210 lam which we were told is the correct pairing. does anyone have any recommendations into why this has been happening?

    Anything ideas will help.

    Cheers
     

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  2. MikePro

    MikePro Major Contributor

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    anything contour-cut, i only trust cast materials.
    however, even though it is calendared....3620/210 boasts a 4yr durability, so it is definitely odd that it is happening to you in such a short period of time.

    lamination tension could be a factor, but you've addressed it
    ink saturation as well.....

    my only thought is that the 3620 falls in the "static cling" vinyl category, being a water-based removeable adhesive. its not designed for longevity.
    Anything contour-cut, that's intended to last longer than a few months, I'd play it "better safe than sorry", and just upgrade to the 3850/290 combo (assuming transluscent is your objective). bit pricier, but it will last.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Signature Sign Guys

    Signature Sign Guys Member

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    Apr 11, 2018
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    My Mistake its the 3169RA paired with 210 , which I think is even more bizarre to fail so early
     
  4. unclebun

    unclebun Very Active Member

    I agree that the problem stems from using a "removable" adhesive. My experience is that most of these should be called non-adhesive. I definitely wouldn't contour cut full bleed graphics with them. It's clear. it's meant to be used in rectangular sheets. Even then, you will experience premature adhesive failure--even indoors.
     
  5. unclebun

    unclebun Very Active Member

    3169RA is still a removable adhesive.
     
  6. MikePro

    MikePro Major Contributor

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    aye, 3169RA still a calendared vinyl with removeable (weak) adhesive..... BUT it should last more than 1month!
    super weird

    out of curiousity, what are you printing with? solvent?
     
    • I Appreciate You I Appreciate You x 1
  7. Signature Sign Guys

    Signature Sign Guys Member

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    yes. using roland soljet pro 4 - generic setting in versa works - letting print outgas for 24hr before laminating
     
  8. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

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    I'd start looking at other materials if you've tweaked your process in every other way. We use IJ35c paired with arlon 3420 satin lam. Works beautifully and stores really well. I contour cut & mask to deliver to a construction outfit that does their own vehicle installs, several months later at times. Haven't had any peeling issues or anything come back with a failure, and that's been about 5 dozen a year since 2015.
     
  9. Signature Sign Guys

    Signature Sign Guys Member

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    Kamloops BC
    What print profile are you using for the IJ35, we have IJ35c paired it with 210 or 3m 8508 and we were told by our suppliers that it is way to aggressive for basic vehicle decals which is why they said the orajet would be better for us
     
  10. Modern Ink Signs

    Modern Ink Signs Premium Subscriber

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    Waukesha, WI
    What rip are you using?
    How are you profiling?
    Are you using any heat in lamination process?

    You have so many open ended possible variables it is hard to say what the problem is

    These are for outdoor and/or for a vehicle?

    Calandered vinyl and lam + solvent inks + removable adhesive = failure

    Do you have the same issues on other media?
     
  11. LarryB

    LarryB Member

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    Webster, Texas
    I've noticed with Oracal rapid air if the ink goes to the edges it will always curl up over time. For this reason I never use it anymore. Also calendered vinyls will always shrink on edges.

    If these are going on vehicles you need to use a cast vinyl and laminate which will not shrink.
     
  12. unclebun

    unclebun Very Active Member

    No such thing as too aggressive for vehicle decals. Vehicle decals have to survive driving 80-90 mph, high heat, extreme cold, car washes, power washers, blasting with dirt and mud.
     
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  13. 2B

    2B Very Active Member

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    What are you applying these graphics to?
    your photo looks like pre-weed, ink saturation and lamination tension is my thought for an explanation prior to installation

    ANY TIME you are using calendared, try to avoid full bleeds, we prefer to leave a minimum .125 white border
    also as mentioned use a permanent adhesive
    if you have to do a full bleed on ANY calendar material, try using a CAST lam, we stopped using 210 because of the shrinkage and how it forces the material to curl
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  14. myront

    myront CorelDRAW is best

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    Ditto.. If at all possible leave a bit of white i.e. shape-cut vehicle graphics being applied to a white trailer. Even our prints applied to white alum we cut smaller to leave the alum edge exposed.
    We use 3M IJ180 w/8518 laminate
    For prints to foamcore we've gone to printing to a heavy paper, laminate then apply to foamcore. Edges won't come up.
     
  15. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

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    I'm printing latex here, I've never bothered leaving a bit of white around contour cuts. Is this a solvent only ordeal?
    More often than not, when we do a dibond panel or construction sign, we wrap the corners with the excess ij35, it keeps the edges from curling and hasn't produced any sort of warp or distortion as far as I know.
     
  16. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

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    We run an HP 560, it should be the profile for ij35c the printer looks up. My customer had been receiving cut graphics from layered calendared vinyl, so when I gave him something with air egress and one part, he was thrilled. I will say the residue left behind is a pain to strip, but it's not impossible.
     
  17. unclebun

    unclebun Very Active Member

    I have used a solvent for 13 years, first a Mimaki and now an Epson, and we always cut through the color. I hate white fringe around cut decals. We have never had curling up problems except when we tried a 3M with removable Comply adhesive. Our run of the mill vinyl is GF Concept 203 and we laminate with Briteline Shield UV. On vehicles we prefer to use Avery 950 for small decals or MPI1105, both with DOL 1360 laminate.
     
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  18. JBurton

    JBurton Signtologist

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    I can't agree enough! They just catch dirt and look like garbage!
     
  19. Signature Sign Guys

    Signature Sign Guys Member

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    I was a bit confused when our suppliers told us that lol. I want our decals stick and not come off, I am wondering if they were told to push this certain vinyl
     
  20. Signature Sign Guys

    Signature Sign Guys Member

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    Apr 11, 2018
    Kamloops BC
    Ill look into the Avery 950, we currently use the MPI1105 for full wraps and haven't had any issues, I just find its a bit overkill for small vehicle decals.
     
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