legacyborn
New Member
That would be awesome Gino, I hope so. Thanks everyone for the awesome advice, as always.
-
I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...
Sign Brokering
- Thread starter legacyborn
- Start date
My .02s...
I'm not sure what I'm missing here. Maybe my definition of broker is wrong. We work with brokers all the time. And much of it is good, solid, profitable work. Now these guys are not work-from-home so called graphic designers trying to nudge their way into our industry. These are large firms that have tons of huge national clients. Yeah, they have the word "Sign" in their business name. But there is not ONE sign maker in the place most of the time.
They call us to do site surveys (Paid). Then we quote them on the project based on those surveys. And yes, they may grind us on the price a bit. But helping them make their margins is not why we are in business. They mark us up how ever they want. Once quotes are approved, deposits or POs are placed. We fab and ship. Or we fab and install. Pass go. Collect $200 (or hove ever much is on the invoice). Rinse. Repeat.
I'm not saying that we don't get sleazoids no and again. We have fired a few. But for the most part, we like them. Its often a welcomed layer between us and a fussy end user.
I'm not sure what I'm missing here. Maybe my definition of broker is wrong. We work with brokers all the time. And much of it is good, solid, profitable work. Now these guys are not work-from-home so called graphic designers trying to nudge their way into our industry. These are large firms that have tons of huge national clients. Yeah, they have the word "Sign" in their business name. But there is not ONE sign maker in the place most of the time.
They call us to do site surveys (Paid). Then we quote them on the project based on those surveys. And yes, they may grind us on the price a bit. But helping them make their margins is not why we are in business. They mark us up how ever they want. Once quotes are approved, deposits or POs are placed. We fab and ship. Or we fab and install. Pass go. Collect $200 (or hove ever much is on the invoice). Rinse. Repeat.
I'm not saying that we don't get sleazoids no and again. We have fired a few. But for the most part, we like them. Its often a welcomed layer between us and a fussy end user.
Aren't we all brokers? I just subbed out a sign that we don't do in house, I will mark it up and provide it to my customer. I guess I'm a broker. Back in the day I started as a print broker and then opened up my own shop. Always looked for the best price but never beat anyone up (just like I do now with vendors). I had one outfit that specialized in one thing and one in another. If you are a great consultant and can take the time to provide them with what they really need you will be providing them with a good service. I give discounts now to a couple of brokers that bring me regular work, I don't mind the discount because they are doing all of the leg work and keeping me from having to interface (ie spend a lot of time) with the end customer. Kind of like a outside sales rep that I don't have to have on the payroll.
legacyborn
New Member
Sorry Rick, I forgot to quote you earlier, but I did answer above, quoted here "As to the types of signs I would sell, most of the clients I've dealt with in the past have been real estate agents and owners. The vehicles for many local businesses (mostly cut vinyl and the occasional partial wrap) and some electrical signage here and there."
I would prefer not to do installs, mostly because I want the sign company to have control over all aspects of quality control.
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
The reason I ask is, in California,building signage is that anything over 500 bucks requires a contractors license. (illuminated or non-illuminated) Technically, you can sell the sign and have the sign company install it on their own contract, but you can not sell the sign and install.
and 
agreed. We built a very strong relationship with a former full service sign company turned broker nearby. I first bought all their assets then busted my butt to make them look good on one of their first large accounts and it has been great steady work ever since. We do a ton of ship in installs for them. I cant say enough good things about them I wish I had more like them. If you believe in putting out a good product and servicing the hell out of the customer and treating your subs right it can pay off in spades.
legacyborn
New Member
Excellent point and absolutely correct (you'd be amazed by how many sign companies don't know this). Another good reason to only sell for the company.
Bigdawg
Just Me
Going on a little bit of a 
... but...
Ummm, I personally cannot do any of the above. None of it. You saw how bad I suck at lettering in person. And while my husband can carve a mean sign - I sure the heck can't... and I wouldn't dream of building an electrical sign by myself.
But I think I'd make a helluva sign broker if I that was my career choice - because I'm smart enough to utilize the skills of others where mine are lacking.
I guess what I'm saying is that back in the day you needed to know how to hand carve and hand paint a sign. That isn't so anymore and it gets old hearing about how we aren't real "sign-makers" if we can't use a brush. It just isn't that way. Are there some crappy licky-sticky shops because of the rise in technology? Yep... lots of 'em. But I'll also tell you there are some pretty crappy sign painters out there. I'll put my vinyl against their mess any day.
Don't get me wrong - I appreciate the art of sign painting and am quite jealous I don't have the skills. But just because someone with different skills works in vinyl instead of paint, it doesn't somehow make them any less of a sign-maker than those that have used a brush.
And BTW I make some pretty mean signs anyway - with no electrical skills, no carving skills and no painting skills.
... but...Ummm, I personally cannot do any of the above. None of it. You saw how bad I suck at lettering in person. And while my husband can carve a mean sign - I sure the heck can't... and I wouldn't dream of building an electrical sign by myself.
But I think I'd make a helluva sign broker if I that was my career choice - because I'm smart enough to utilize the skills of others where mine are lacking.
I guess what I'm saying is that back in the day you needed to know how to hand carve and hand paint a sign. That isn't so anymore and it gets old hearing about how we aren't real "sign-makers" if we can't use a brush. It just isn't that way. Are there some crappy licky-sticky shops because of the rise in technology? Yep... lots of 'em. But I'll also tell you there are some pretty crappy sign painters out there. I'll put my vinyl against their mess any day.
Don't get me wrong - I appreciate the art of sign painting and am quite jealous I don't have the skills. But just because someone with different skills works in vinyl instead of paint, it doesn't somehow make them any less of a sign-maker than those that have used a brush.
And BTW I make some pretty mean signs anyway - with no electrical skills, no carving skills and no painting skills.
Sticky Signs
New Member
It's combination of things - in no particular order.
- Print and install
- install supplied graphics
- site surveys
- print & ship
skyhigh
New Member
There is a fine line between what you call your "mainstay" and how much of a variety the "A-Typical" sign company actually does in house these days.
From reading the forum, I can assumed that 80% of the "in house" sales from todays typical sign shop, either rolls off the printer or flatbed. While that 80% could be a substantial amount of money (could be $10mil a year), its a very small part of the "sign" world.
Most sign shops today do not do channel letters in house....or electrical boxes....or LED message centers....or CNC router work.....or produce vacuum formed anything.....or do neon bending.....or do any major type of installation. Some shops don't even do their own design work.
Is the average "sign" shop today, more broker than producer? We are like the doctors.....very few "General Practitioners". We are all turning into specialists.
My opinion for what it's worth. I trained sales people in our plant about 3 years ago to go forth and spread the word. They are in the northwest, northeast and midwest.
They did great when they sold at rock bottom. I was not happy with that because of the quality of my work. I will not give this stuff away. I continue to have several of these guys out there and I consider them brokers. They sell my product at a fair price and mark it up enough so that they can make a few $$$. The ones who understand that price is not what you sell on, are the ones who are still sending me business. It is a tuff market when you are not bending over for the dollar, but stand firm based on your product. Good luck and if you believe in your product you stand a better chance. Find a good supplier first and foremost.
They did great when they sold at rock bottom. I was not happy with that because of the quality of my work. I will not give this stuff away. I continue to have several of these guys out there and I consider them brokers. They sell my product at a fair price and mark it up enough so that they can make a few $$$. The ones who understand that price is not what you sell on, are the ones who are still sending me business. It is a tuff market when you are not bending over for the dollar, but stand firm based on your product. Good luck and if you believe in your product you stand a better chance. Find a good supplier first and foremost.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Going on a little bit of a
Ummm, I personally cannot do any of the above. None of it. You saw how bad I suck at lettering in person. And while my husband can carve a mean sign - I sure the heck can't... and I wouldn't dream of building an electrical sign by myself.
But I think I'd make a helluva sign broker if I that was my career choice - because I'm smart enough to utilize the skills of others where mine are lacking.
I guess what I'm saying is that back in the day you needed to know how to hand carve and hand paint a sign. That isn't so anymore and it gets old hearing about how we aren't real "sign-makers" if we can't use a brush. It just isn't that way. Are there some crappy licky-sticky shops because of the rise in technology? Yep... lots of 'em. But I'll also tell you there are some pretty crappy sign painters out there. I'll put my vinyl against their mess any day.
Don't get me wrong - I appreciate the art of sign painting and am quite jealous I don't have the skills. But just because someone with different skills works in vinyl instead of paint, it doesn't somehow make them any less of a sign-maker than those that have used a brush.
And BTW I make some pretty mean signs anyway - with no electrical skills, no carving skills and no painting skills.
Sorry Bigdawg, but you completely missed the boat on this one. Regardless of how you.... or anyone else says how neat it is to be able to do something with eye to hand coordination, that is not my point at all. This is not the story you dread hearing about. As tiring as it is to you to hear those stories.... do you honestly realize how boring and gut-wrenching it is to hear story after story about.... ya gotta start somewhere or I can push buttons or I can design in this fancy software ?? At least the old stories have a base. They know and understand the fundamentals of sign making. Some were just more talented than others, hence why you find bad ones, but that doesn't always mean they don't know their stuff. The basics are known whatever part of the business you are in. Coming up through the ranks is a really good way to do it, but jumping in after a year or two of art school or dabbling in typography or surfing the net, just doesn't sound very credible to me..... and I'm sure most anyone would agree with that, unless they aren't trained to begin with. Sure, anyone can eventually learn this stuff, but there's just some things you can't do or fix with the click of a mouse or push of a button. There's no need to get all defensive about hand/eye coordination compared to book learned. I'm basically all self taught with learning from some mighty good people over the years who shared their trade with me. I'm all ears and eyes when it comes to this stuff. The problem is when someone talks the talk and others don't have a clue as to what you're talking about, it gets old real fast. The other day, I didn't know a term..... border weed or something, but I've been doing it for almost 3 decade, just didn't know what the fancy term was for slicing weeding lines.
Anyway, the reason I first said that was..... if he wanted to broker, was there anything he could pull from to get a little niche thing going. If he couldn't swing a full scale shop at the moment, perhaps he could sell something he was skilled at and do the novelty thing or brokering thing on the side, instead of making it his main gig.
You might see yourself as being a very knowledgeable sign person, but if you had to sell signs of any kind from carved, to electrical, channel, plasma cut metal, wraps, sandblasted, screen printed, pylons, awnings, LED, schematics and then how these things are assembled and delivered without having to go back and forth to your 10 different vendors for answers...... it takes more than a good eye for layout and composition to be a good broker.
Again, I'm sure you'd be good, but could you really do it and make ends meet ??
The last thing is..... unlike Sticky, most 'Brokers' tend to go all over the place to find supplier after supplier they can count on, but they generally don't remain loyal to any given one. They will make you bid out against each other and eventually a good sign shop will get tired of the nonsense and tell the 'Broker' to go away. As more and more bridges are burned, they eventually fizzle out and just sell novelty stuff.
In a way, we're all 'Brokers' in that we are always schmoozing our customers and trying to keep the loyal customers loyal. We want the good paying ones to keep coming back, so by bringing in more and more equipment, people and techniques, we stay on top by brokering out our own products and not relying on others, thus being able to regulate our own quality control to the nth degree and not be at the mercy of someone 10 miles or a 1,000 miles away. This is why so many 'Brokers' fail. They can't keep the quality where it needs to be and still remain competitive. It's impossible, so they generally become salespeople or just do something they're really good at.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
How....... in any of that, did you manage to twist it completely around to sound like I said you or your boss aren't sign makers ??
I was talking about you, I don't even know your boss, so don't start jumping to conclusions. There's already too much of that around the masses for the admins to go off half-cocked, too. AND I didn't say you weren't a sign maker or sign person. I said you weren't equipped on your own to 'Broker' signs for a living. There's a big difference.
So please..... don't make me out to be the bad guy, when all I did was to post up truth.
sky, you're right, too. Many of the sign shops are just that.... little specialty shops, case they don't know how. That's what I'm getting at. Years ago, most people in this line of work would eventually learn all of it. If you worked in a sign shop, you just had to learn it all. Kinda like going to school as a kid. You go and you learn science, math, geography, reading and so many other things. You do it and try to pass, but there's nothing saying you have to excel at each and every subject. Life and business are the same way. You learn as you go. Signs were that way for many many years, until the computer came along. Nowadays, you no longer need the talent, just gain knowledge and you'll be Okay. Problem with that is..... too many come in that can't even memorize the route on an elevator, but they can push a mouse around and some kinda software package which makes them an instant arteest.
If Bigdawg wants to take the easy way out and claim I'm making fun of her..... too bad. It's not good to agree to disagree, if you're not on the same page.... or book.
I forgot to mention, really good post Sarah. My only observation would be..... we call them sales people, not brokers.... especially if they were trained by you for your company.
CES020
New Member
What makes you a "sign-maker"? According to some, those qualifications aren't met by 98% of the people in the sign business. There are people that make Channel letters and do nothing but that. I think they are sign makers. I've never built or installed a channel letter. There are people that do nothing but electronic displays. Are they sign makers? They engineer, sell, and install electronic signs all day. I've never made or installed one of those. Are people that make ADA signs, sign makers? They wouldn't know which end of a plotter to put the material in if they are using Photopolymer. Do you have to know it all to be called a "Sign Maker"? Or is it a dollar threshold? I know franchise owners doing millions a year. Are they sign makers?
What's the importance of the label? None, I'd argue. You can be in the SIGN BUSINESS and not be someone that people write books about. Who would you rather be, the Sign Shop Owner that is doing $2M a year in revenue or the "Sign Maker" that can't make enough on his/her own to pay their bills? I know both. The last "Sign Maker" I had a relationship with now drives a truck for a living because he couldn't make it as a "Sign Maker". And I'm sure there are true artists that are making a killing and franchise owners that are in the toilet.
What difference does it make? We're all good at various things in the SIGN BUSINESS. You might be better at some things, I might excel at others. If we share that knowledge, we'll both be smarter and more educated about the business.
I'm sure many of you are just like me, when sitting at stoplights, or out in traffic, you are always looking at signs,etc. I see stuff that's been there for a long time and I think there were just as many hacks out there in 1980 as there are today. I can't remember the last time I saw a car graphic that was top notch, yet those people keep selling them and people keep buying them. I've also seen some of the crappiest hand painted work ever, praised by people because it was "hand painted", even though it was horrid.
Brokers are just people, nothing special about them, per se. Some are bad, some are good, some get it, some don't, some will help you build your business, some will screw you. Pretty much the same rule with everyone else in life. People are people.
Just my opinion.
What's the importance of the label? None, I'd argue. You can be in the SIGN BUSINESS and not be someone that people write books about. Who would you rather be, the Sign Shop Owner that is doing $2M a year in revenue or the "Sign Maker" that can't make enough on his/her own to pay their bills? I know both. The last "Sign Maker" I had a relationship with now drives a truck for a living because he couldn't make it as a "Sign Maker". And I'm sure there are true artists that are making a killing and franchise owners that are in the toilet.
What difference does it make? We're all good at various things in the SIGN BUSINESS. You might be better at some things, I might excel at others. If we share that knowledge, we'll both be smarter and more educated about the business.
I'm sure many of you are just like me, when sitting at stoplights, or out in traffic, you are always looking at signs,etc. I see stuff that's been there for a long time and I think there were just as many hacks out there in 1980 as there are today. I can't remember the last time I saw a car graphic that was top notch, yet those people keep selling them and people keep buying them. I've also seen some of the crappiest hand painted work ever, praised by people because it was "hand painted", even though it was horrid.
Brokers are just people, nothing special about them, per se. Some are bad, some are good, some get it, some don't, some will help you build your business, some will screw you. Pretty much the same rule with everyone else in life. People are people.
Just my opinion.