Which all makes sense in a perfect world where we all value ourselves, our talent, our overhead costs, etc.. to a similar degree. Unfortunately, that's not the world most of us inhabit. Nearly all of us have some local competitor who is the driving force in the race to the bottom.
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Sign Craft Trade Secret #77 No more lost design fees
- Thread starter BIG EASY DOES IT
- Start date
Which all makes sense in a perfect world where we all value ourselves, our talent, our overhead costs, etc.. to a similar degree. Unfortunately, that's not the world most of us inhabit. Nearly all of us have some local competitor who is the driving force in the race to the bottom.
Tim, do yourself a favor and read (if you haven't already) [h=1]The E-Myth : Why Most Small Businesses Don't Work and What to Do About It [/h]http://www.amazon.com/E-Myth-Most-Small-Businesses-About/dp/0887304729/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1443124980&sr=8-2&keywords=the+e-myth+michael+gerber
It will totally change your perspective, it did for me....
It will totally change your perspective, it did for me....
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
This is not about banners...
Its about design...
Some of us are "replicators", we get the clients logo on a business card, we redraw it, slap on some substrate.
Some of us are "artistes", we get a job with no logo, we can't just type out Helvetica and hand it to the client, so we logo-ize the layout.
Some of us occasionally get to design, we get paid to design, we design a sign with some added elements, and the clients happy.
At some point, the client may ask for the files because we did such a great job, they want that work on all their other marketing. From the beginning, we need to develop a policy of who gets what, who owns what, and what's it all going to cost to get the files from you.
We only design, occasionally we get banners printed for the convenience of the client. Banners should not be the benchmark for how we price design. But if they want the file, it should cost them...
Inform the client who owns the design.
Have a policy on how the client can buy the layout or design.
Or stop logo-izing your layouts...
Its about design...
Some of us are "replicators", we get the clients logo on a business card, we redraw it, slap on some substrate.
Some of us are "artistes", we get a job with no logo, we can't just type out Helvetica and hand it to the client, so we logo-ize the layout.
Some of us occasionally get to design, we get paid to design, we design a sign with some added elements, and the clients happy.
At some point, the client may ask for the files because we did such a great job, they want that work on all their other marketing. From the beginning, we need to develop a policy of who gets what, who owns what, and what's it all going to cost to get the files from you.
We only design, occasionally we get banners printed for the convenience of the client. Banners should not be the benchmark for how we price design. But if they want the file, it should cost them...
Inform the client who owns the design.
Have a policy on how the client can buy the layout or design.
Or stop logo-izing your layouts...
Hi I'm new here & I posted this question in the wrong place...chit chat. Sorry.
I will repost it here & if a mod could delete the 1st thread I'd appreciate it.
What would you do?
If a long time customer of yours had someone else photograph
your hand painted sign panels (that we designed) & duplicate
them by printing them? These were food items that they carry &
we had done the same decorative signs for many of her
locations. Now our designs are being printed by someone else.
For less money. We've done these same panels at a number of her
locations over a period of many years. They were all hand lettered
but we also do some printing for her so we could have easily
printed them.
1-Are our designs copyrighted?
2-Would you duplicate another company's designs almost
exactly? Some were exact.
Imagine my surprise when we walked into the new place & saw
all of my designs done by someone else.
I will repost it here & if a mod could delete the 1st thread I'd appreciate it.
What would you do?
If a long time customer of yours had someone else photograph
your hand painted sign panels (that we designed) & duplicate
them by printing them? These were food items that they carry &
we had done the same decorative signs for many of her
locations. Now our designs are being printed by someone else.
For less money. We've done these same panels at a number of her
locations over a period of many years. They were all hand lettered
but we also do some printing for her so we could have easily
printed them.
1-Are our designs copyrighted?
2-Would you duplicate another company's designs almost
exactly? Some were exact.
Imagine my surprise when we walked into the new place & saw
all of my designs done by someone else.
Techman
New Member
Why market to clients who refuse to pay for the work? Market to those who are least affected by the economy.
Why is it one area can charge for it and some say one cannot in another?
Why is it that one charges for design in one part of town yet another in the same town says no one will pay it?
Why is it that one charges high rates and is booked solid for weeks .. yet one down the street just a few blocks is one screaming how bad the economy is?
Some will say people are different there. How are they different? Are they from Mars?
Are they different just a few blocks down the street?
All of us must evolve over time. Otherwise we will stagnate. Most just get into a comfort zone and stagnate. A few evolve over time and continue to have an income.
How many attend seminars to learn something new about marketing? Or a new technique.. Verses.. How many continue to use the time tested fails of marketing?
All of the negatives are all an excuse. If the local Harley deal can sell 60 bikes a month for at least $20 grand each then all the other talk about bad economy hurting their business is pure bullscat.
visual800
Active Member
gentlemen this is not about banners. I was explaining how articles in signcraft are BS and most are written in a fantasy world.
this design fee process would never work here in my area and NOT cause I dont try it but because no one here does it. Im telling you these folks will just pass you by. If you want a designfee why not just sneak it into your sign package and keep it to yourself.
as far as ownership the customer can have my designs I create I mean what else am I going to do with them, right? I always hold onto my art though. things should not be this complicated when we do logos
this design fee process would never work here in my area and NOT cause I dont try it but because no one here does it. Im telling you these folks will just pass you by. If you want a designfee why not just sneak it into your sign package and keep it to yourself.
as far as ownership the customer can have my designs I create I mean what else am I going to do with them, right? I always hold onto my art though. things should not be this complicated when we do logos
Gino
Premium Subscriber
The ownership of the design on that form is what I'm always talking about. You have it well noted and in plain sight for anyone to see. Now, you've made the rules available. A design fee is totally different. If you can't get it, due to your area, then you can't get it. However, you are being part of the problem, by going along with a bad policy. I would venture to say...... any ad agency or design group open up shop in your town could..... and would justify their prices. If you have nothing that stands out against the other hacks, then I guess you can't charge for it, but if you excel at it and can demonstrate why you are worth the money....... you'll get it everytime.
We get $145.00 an hour to do ANY kind of layout, recreations or whatever computer work time is needed on any job. This is the same kinda charge we have for washing vehicles. We really don't want to do it, but if we are asked to do it, we get paid swimmingly. All quotes state, you must bring your truck in completely washed. All quotes state, your door glass or windows must be 100% clean...... or you'll be paying highly skilled artists to do it for your lazy a$$. All quotes state when designing, all artwork belongs to us. When they receive the invoice, it states it again. Now, they've been fully warned and alerted to the industry's standards. They have the option of buying it for complete ownership, other than the one mentioned above. We have a line item which states, we still reserve the right to use their design, images or photos in any of our ad campaigns.
Coming back to someone days, weeks, years later, is not the same. You are being very uunreasonable in your thinking you can use a glitch in your system to extract money from someone who has p!ssed you off after the fact.
Put these forms to use, customize them to fit various needs and get what is honestly yours.
We get $145.00 an hour to do ANY kind of layout, recreations or whatever computer work time is needed on any job. This is the same kinda charge we have for washing vehicles. We really don't want to do it, but if we are asked to do it, we get paid swimmingly. All quotes state, you must bring your truck in completely washed. All quotes state, your door glass or windows must be 100% clean...... or you'll be paying highly skilled artists to do it for your lazy a$$. All quotes state when designing, all artwork belongs to us. When they receive the invoice, it states it again. Now, they've been fully warned and alerted to the industry's standards. They have the option of buying it for complete ownership, other than the one mentioned above. We have a line item which states, we still reserve the right to use their design, images or photos in any of our ad campaigns.
Coming back to someone days, weeks, years later, is not the same. You are being very uunreasonable in your thinking you can use a glitch in your system to extract money from someone who has p!ssed you off after the fact.
Put these forms to use, customize them to fit various needs and get what is honestly yours.
visual800
Active Member
as I have said before my designs sell my product , well sometimes it does. I damn sure am no hack
I'm not sure where this idea came from that because some of us work in areas where the long time or prevailing mode of operation is to toss free layouts around like cocktail napkins is somehow our fault, a sign of weakness or lack of self respect, but its more than a tad annoying and quite condescending.
If a well established sign company like Ginos can command $145 per hour from every single customer for everything from cleaning vehicles to simple layouts and design work with no repercussions and attrition from his customers, then more power to him. Its encouraging to see someone command an hourly rate closer to graphic designer fees in a small to medium sized town like Reading, PA, so maybe there is hope for more of us to
In our area, free layouts are expected to be included for run of the mill, everyday, routine work.
I can say with complete certainty, that our shop's design skills and the well established reputation of those skills is quite high compared to much of our similarly equipped competition, but the minute we demand even a commitment to the job before layouts are provided, we usually never get the job and later see the work on location or on the road having been done by an inferior competitor.
It must be a great comfort and luxury to demand and receive the unilateral obedience some here claim they receive, but that doesn't automatically mean those don't have that are any less professional, competent, confident or well organized.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Anyone is free to ignore my words or let them stick. If you choose to dislike them, there must be a reason, as well as if you like them. I did not say, we get each and every job with this policy. Not everything is as black & white as you put it. If some guy/gal comes in with a truck and want words on it, along with a picture of a flower and it only takes 15 minutes to arrange words, that is part of my job........ no charge, but if they don't give a deposit, they don't take any drawings with them. They must commit it to memory if they go elsewhere. Again, that to me does not represent artwork arranging words on a truck or electric sign. Any truck or nice sign needs very little time to turn out just right. If you know your job/capabilities...... certain things just take place automatically. If you know going in this or that will take you X amount of time, add it to your cost in fabrication/production somewhere. Now, if that same person wants you to make mock up after mock up and can't visualize a blessed thing, they are warned up front of the art costs. You can tell these people within 2 minutes. That high cost makes them decide quickly and not waste your time.
So, it has nothing to do with being an established or some niche shop. It has to do with company policy and working within the rules. You can also choose to ignore your own rules, if you want. But at least they are posted and you have no surprise costs going in and your potential client understands it. The OP wanted to know if he could get hidden money for his drawings. My answer is still..... NO, not if you never told them. With some of your ideas, do you go back later, if you never told them a thing about ownership rights/costs and try to extort money from your free drawings ??
Heck, I just did a sign for free the other day. It was actually a name addition. Took me less than 5 minutes to do. She came back and I told her no charge. Why, I was prepared to pay you ?? I realize that, but our shop minimum is $125. I can't charge you that for what we just did, so rather than put it on the books, I'll get ya next time around. She said, alright. This sign was for my mother, but where I work, we need to order a lot of signs real soon and I'm the person in charge of that kinda thing. I'll be back next week. Turned out it was for 65pcs 2' × 3' reflective aluminum signs. Gave her a price and she said, not a problem.
It does pay to do freebie stuff, but it helps to know when, where and why. I got lucky on that one, but the same scenario has happened many times over the years.
So, it has nothing to do with being an established or some niche shop. It has to do with company policy and working within the rules. You can also choose to ignore your own rules, if you want. But at least they are posted and you have no surprise costs going in and your potential client understands it. The OP wanted to know if he could get hidden money for his drawings. My answer is still..... NO, not if you never told them. With some of your ideas, do you go back later, if you never told them a thing about ownership rights/costs and try to extort money from your free drawings ??
Heck, I just did a sign for free the other day. It was actually a name addition. Took me less than 5 minutes to do. She came back and I told her no charge. Why, I was prepared to pay you ?? I realize that, but our shop minimum is $125. I can't charge you that for what we just did, so rather than put it on the books, I'll get ya next time around. She said, alright. This sign was for my mother, but where I work, we need to order a lot of signs real soon and I'm the person in charge of that kinda thing. I'll be back next week. Turned out it was for 65pcs 2' × 3' reflective aluminum signs. Gave her a price and she said, not a problem.
It does pay to do freebie stuff, but it helps to know when, where and why. I got lucky on that one, but the same scenario has happened many times over the years.