Sign Warehouse

[Techman]

Let me tell a rambling true story

Years ago another supplier in another industry fell into the trap of selling to the wrong parties. They appeared at a convention and promptly got their butt in a sling over selling to the wrong parties.

This particular company treated each client as an individual account. It didn't care who was on that account. All they wanted was to sell as much as possible. This was very mistaken because as soon as the clients found themselves competing against other non industry users they bolted.. The old line pro's simply refused to buy from that supplier any more. New clients would buy but later leave when they saw the conflicts. For the first few months this supplier insisted he had the right to sell to whom he pleased and besides he had no control over who bought from them.

Fine. The original buyers who supported this supplier felt betrayed and finally turned away. Let the other non industry clients buy their junk. This and a few other small missteps all based in ignorance and arrogance cost this supplier more than they ever knew. Likewise a few other suppliers came around and some gained market share.

Finally at this convention, the supplier company's president came in. He said he was sorry every one was so upset and wanted to know what would make the clients happy.

One,, stop treating the individual clients as hundreds of tiny accounts with no buying power, with no say in product lines and no recourse. Stop telling these clients to "take it or leave it" Start treating all those little individual clients as an industry with huge buying power and protect that market.

In other words. The clients didn't care what that supplier sold. All they wanted was to have their segment protected. Then the clients said.. why not make a different line of products to sell to that other segment? Whats so difficult with that?

Today that supplier has separate line that caters to the original client base with great products and is growing in share. And they supply to another non traditional client base with sales growing in that separate segment.

So, sign warehouse.. Why not protect the sign industry market share? Loyalty has its privileges. After all your name is "sign warehouse".

 

[sarge]

tecman .. i hear ya .. i believe life goes in circles .. what comes around will go around .. and some of these guys think the client owes them .. that is so not true .. i believe also that most of a good business is from word of mouth .. not word of prey .. or pray .. by the sound of some of the guys in this forum it is word of pray .. they pray someone would hire them ..and that makes one think what are the issues cuz i have more business then i can handle right now

 

[southside signmaker]

Techman,

Very well said!

 

[HP5000ps]

You know it looks like there is an opportunity for a sign maker to turn sign maker supplier here.

Get after it.

 

[JBarraxSW]

A few comments about this wide ranging topic.
To Pat. We're sorry for the inconvenience.
To Raul and co. What we're seeing with the empty shelf syndrome is companies trying to find ways to survive the most challenging economy since the Depression. Best Buy's CEO declared last October that the shift in consumer behavior is nothing less than "seismic." With such drastic changes in the economic conditions, companies large and small have to find ways to adapt or they simply go away (like WAMU, Wachovia, Bennigan's, Circuit City, and Art on Glass).
It's easy for us as consumers to say that providing excellent service is the way to survive, but the reality, born out by the 1.3 million layoffs nationwide in just the past few months, is that most companies simply can't afford to keep the same number of employees when sales decline as sharply as they did in late 2008.
Speaking of reductions, you will note that the new Fellers catalog no longer tells you how many locations they have. Might it be because they're closing a few stores?
Some of you have accused of being in competition with our customers. We do not sell signs and banners and we don't do wholesale printing. We certainly could. We have the equipment. We have an established internet presence that would give us immediate access to lots of people looking for finished signage. But we are a wholesale supplier, not a retailer. So we don't sell signage because we don't believe in competing with our customers.
As a wholesaler, we do offer equipment to lots of people including sign businesses, government agencies, and yes, car dealers. One of the rules of growing a business (and surviving a recession) is to look for new business opportunities. SAI is doing this by offering paint protection templates, and encouraging sign business to sell services normally offered by car dealers. How do you think the car dealers feel about sign makers encroaching on their lucrative paint protection business?
Roland is doing likewise by marketing rotary engravers for producing rhinestone decorated t-shirts. How do you think the screen print and embroidery people feel about Roland and its distributors equipping sign makers to compete with them?
The simple truth is, we're all looking for ways to sustain and increase sales. One of those ways is finding new markets for our products and services, just as SAI and Roland are doing. Just as many of you are doing. Diversification is simply a way to ensure that we continue to grow so we can be here next year and the year after to serve the industry.

 

[Pat Whatley]

To Pat. We're sorry for the inconvenience.

Dammit, I'm more pissed off at your crap company right now than I was when this actually happened. Dude...you are one giant cess pool of excuses, misdirection, and spin. You really should be in politics instead of trying to prop up a company with a history of CRAP customer service.

Here's a screen shot from the email. DOES THIS LOOK LIKE AN OMISSION? Looks like it BLATANTLY states that you're selling one item then you are switching it for a different item. The complete lack of communication told me a whole lot. Hiding from screw ups does not eliminate the screw ups. Somebody caught it after all my emails because it got changed on the web site the next day.

I had let this all go, I managed to use it all so no damage done. But calling it an inconvenience IS BULLSHIT AND YOU KNOW IT.

Diversification is simply a way to ensure that we continue to grow so we can be here next year and the year after to serve the industry.

Diversification is a way to make sure you've got a whole new set of customers to run off.

 

[The Sign Dude]

maybe GM should diversify and start selling directly to the general public. im sure if they offered the same pricing to the general public that they do to all their dealerships they would be able to increase sales by a ton.

 

[Techman]

We do not sell signs and banners and we don't do wholesale printing.

No but you sell the supplies to OUR customers allowing them to make Their stuff with out us.. And that in itself is shifting our dinner to your table. Increasing sales is good.
Increasing sales by closing the back door so existing clients stay is better. Increasing new sign ups only to have old sign ups leave is a flat line and that is BAD...

 

[HP5000ps]

No but you sell the supplies to OUR customers allowing them to make Their stuff with out us..

There might be a solution...find a better customer.

 

[John L]

I'm really sorry to hear about the problems but I have been a customer of Grayson off and on, for a long time now. I think I started out with them by buying Flexi 1.2 and a $3600 color scanner.. haha.

Just for the record... Overall they have done me pretty good. I can still call with quick questions, tech support for equipment well beyond their support agreement with me and I have always been well taken care of.

The few problems we have had with material orders over the years were also mended very quickly. I would call, ask for management and just ask to work it out.

 

[sarge]

Pat .. what your mentioned is exactly what happened to me .. i own a 24" vinyl express plotter that i will not use .. screw em .. it has less then 4 hours on it .. it came with a stand .. the stand was all bent to sh^t and all i got was .. mail it back (my expence) and if we think it is our fault we will ship you a new one (at my expence) .. they didnt have another item i ordered so they charged me for the more expensive item and shipped a lesser grade item and told me i could have the difference in product .. if i still didnt want this item .. ship it back and they will credit me for the item in product .. but would not give my money back .. i hope their company fails .. and if it does it is because of customer service

 

[sarge]

John .. is grayson a sign supplier .. i tried to google them .. but no luck

 

[futuredcon]

Message to all you whingers, It is very simple Don't use SW for your supplies.
I think you may find your day go a lot smoother if you use another vendor that you will be happy with and therefore you can spend less time doing your favorite passtime....Venting on 101.

 

[Graphics2u]

There might be a solution...find a better customer.

Exactly! There will always be people out there who want to buy a used plotter off ebay and make their own decals and banners for their own companies. But those people are few and far between. If they did do this then they were obviously not happy with some aspect of their current way of obtaining signs or banners. It may have been service, quality, turnaround time or maybe they're just cheap. Those are not the kind of people we should be worried about anyway.
To blame Signwarehouse or any other supplier for selling to someone like that is not fair. If a person calls them and they have the equipment to cut vinyl or are interested in buying equipment to cut vinyl or print signs they have every right to sell to them. There should not be a screening process that they go through to find out who they are currently purchasing signs from and are they going to get mad if I sell to them. Some one comes into my shop I try to sell to them.

Pat- I agree that if you purchased the vinyl under the impression that it was 50 yard rolls you probably feel ripped off. However if you purchased it for a price that was a good deal for a 10 yard roll and was expecting to get 50 yards, then you should have realized that it was a too good to be true deal. It was a Type-O, it happens. Could you have sent the remainder of what your employee didn't use back? If you couldn't get any calls returned then that's a problem.

 

[Graphics2u]

John .. is grayson a sign supplier .. i tried to google them .. but no luck

Grayson is the G of GBC Signwarehouse. For those that have been around awhile that's what Signwarehouse was first known as. Think it was Grayson Business Computers but don't quote me on that.

 

[Snappy]

CAUTION: LONG anti-SW STORY AHEAD...

I would never recommend SW to anyone. I had a Vinyl Express 52" vinyl cutter that I purchased from SW. I used and it did very well for about 5 years until it crapped out....

At that point, I called SW Techs to see if it would be worth fixing or if I should just trash it and buy another one and the tech said "Oh, it's definitely worth fixing. The errors you're having are because the main board has gone out.... a new main board will definitely fix it... they are around $600. Very easy swap"

Well, since he seemed to be 100% that a main board would fix it, I ordered one. Installed it carefully and correctly according to the instructions, and guess what, it didn't work.... well, after many emails and messages and non-returned calls, I finally get Tech Support back on the phone. "We don't have a clue..... package it up and send it in and we'll take a look."

At this point, I'm already regretting having been talked into repairing it, but decide I have $600 invested, might as well see if they can fix it. I box it up and send it in with a note explaining the situation.... another $125.

A month passes and I don't hear anything, so I start the attempts at reaching Tech Support again. Talk to a tech a couple of times, and they have no clue.... "Your machine is not being worked on, we don't know where it is..." Finally I get the tech manager who informs me it is off to the side with a bunch of stuff, "Because I did not get an RMA.... what's more, you didn't send it in the original box, so when we send it back, there will be no warranty on any work we do." Not at all nice about it either. WTF! They never told me anything about an RMA. It was out of warranty... 5 years old.... I'm going to have the original box? I put all my info in there with an explanation of the problems, and they are going to have an attitude about it??

Well, please sir, just do whatever you need to do, but get it in the queue to be looked at... another few weeks pass, I get them back on the phone. "The main board is out." WHAT? You just sent me a new one and I replaced it.... can't be. "Oh.. did they tell you about replacing the stepper motors?", "No..", "Well, this is an older machine and in order for the new main board to work we have to put in newer motors...." "Ok, well, send me an estimate.."

I get the estimate. It's around $1,300 including a new main board.... I call back, "I just put in a new main board.." "Well, if that one's OK, we'll knock $600 off... we won't know that until we try it.... you might have damaged this one putting it in... there's no guarantees since we didn't install it..." Arrrgghhh.....

Ok, so far I have $725 invested... with them saying probably $1,300 or more to fix it. I'm sure they'll probably charge me another $250 to get it back. So I'll basically have $2,300 in it, and if it doesn't work the day I get it back, they are saying "Too bad, we don't care, because you didn't send it in your original box..."

But on the other hand, I could possible get by with $700 more + shipping and be back going.... I already have $725 in it... so I decide to have them fix it. I call them back and tell them to go ahead. Wait another month or so and call back in to check on it. "No, we're not working on it... you never paid any money yet." WHAT? Y'all don't even know how much it will be......

So they send over the estimate for $700 and say they don't know how much shipping will be... at this point, I'm so tired of trying to deal with them, I'm leary about sending more money and furthering this fiasco. So I put it off and put it off.... this took place about 3 years ago....

That's the last I've heard from them. I have never received a call or email FROM them about it all through this whole thing that took several months. Never a follow-up, "what have you decided." It always required me making a great effort to reach their tech support. I never vented to them, but their tech department was never nice on the phone..... always telling me how the problems were my fault. Well, it might be, but I'm very easy-going and usually have no problems working with someone, so I'm thinking it's 'THEM'.

So, I have no idea if they fixed my machine and sold it to someone else, threw it away, parted it out for their own use or what.

In my eyes, their customer service and tech support is VERY unprofessional.... they are definitely more on SELLING than they are on customer support. I would never buy another piece of equipment from them and have steered quite a few other people away from buying from them.

 

[Graphics2u]

I never vented to them, but their tech department was never nice on the phone..... always telling me how the problems were my fault. Well, it might be, .

So you just left your plotter there without venting to them, and 3 years later you bring it up? Man you are easy going! And welcome to Signs 101.

 

[MacDaddy]

"The few problems we have had with material orders over the years were also mended very quickly. I would call, ask for management and just ask to work it out."

Yep, that's usually the best way to get the results you desire... Ask for what you want. I agree with you...

 

[Snappy]

So you just left your plotter there without venting to them, and 3 years later you bring it up? Man you are easy going! And welcome to Signs 101.

for the welcome.....

This is not the first time I've brought it up in the 3 years.... I've told plenty of other people who have asked about buying equipment from SW.

As far as the plotter, I didn't know what to do about it.... especially after I figured out I was gonna get hammered by them one way or another. The way the tech manager acted, I can promise you they would have claimed my main board was bad and I'd have ended up with over a $1,300 bill... and if it didn't work when I got it back, I was sho-nuff screwed without at least a non-DOA guarantee...

Also they would have charged me at least $200 to ship back a cutter that was no good unless fixed. It's so hard to get anyone (or was then) in their Tech Department, I gave up trying to discuss it with them. The whole dragged out ordeal was a frustrating event from start to finish. I just chalked it up as a learning experience, gingerly applied some salve on my raw parts and moved on.

They probably fixed the thing with $100 worth of used parts (and my newly purchased $600 main board) and sold it for $3,500, for all I know.

It might have cost me $725 and my cutter, but I can guarantee I've cost them many times that amount in lost business by talking people out of buying equipment from them...

 

[907customs]

Am I the only one who has had good dealings with SW? I have been using them almost exclusively for the last 5 years. There is only one local supplier (150 miles away) here in AK, and he sells only Avery vinyl which I havn't had good luck with. In those 5 years, and $60k+ worth of purchases, I can only think of a time or two that I wasn't completely happy with my orders, and those 1 or two things were very minor. I have noticed a fairly high turnover rate lately however, and I do miss a couple of quality sales folks, but generally anyone that I get is ok. Living here in AK, shipping can be a killer for any business, and SW has made it easy on me, only requiring $300 to $400 minimums for cutting me a pretty good deal on shipping. Now, if there is better out there, I'm all ears... although I had a terrible first experience with Fellers, and really don't care to work with them due to shipping quote problems, and $1500 minimum orders for free shipping to AK.