Signs 101 Membership Qualifications

[CentralSigns]

not at all relevant, in my opinion... of course a sign equipment salesman won't see customers as competitors... quite simply, they aren't !

I voted "let Joe Airline" in, by the way... but to play devils advocate, and to identify the kind of information that I think most accurately represents the most value here...

...for me, anyway, I get quick responses, from actual hands on experience, in the most diverse scenarios...

...the HP techs etc... they can't offer that, they never even had that information... and no matter how many tens of thousands of dollars a company spends... most traditional sources of information are NOT 24/7, and are NOT schooled in the hands on realities of a million little random rare details...

...which the unmatchable collection of contributing members here DO possess

so, I'm not disputing that they are not really a threat to small sign shops... I get that & have voiced it long ago... but to find humor in a perceived oversight ... I doubt anyone overlooked the fact that HP wouldn't shun them... it's just irrelevant

I vote about the same as you and your right iSign it will not make any difference to me if a airline started a shop or not, nor would it if a ski hill did as i do live in the right mountains. It is good thought to look at both sides of the story for sure.

Opposite to Custom Graphics I have felt obligated as a small sign shop to pay the price of membership here since day one or at least the first month. I believe the information I am able to receive from this site is well worth the money, and it's not a fortune to pay. It's more like paying to have access to all the help and info here to keep the site alive. I think much the same as Custom Graphics maybe there should be a price of membership after a time. Give them a couple months on their nickle then its time to pay for info.

Probably way off topic eh!!

 

[mark galoob]

ive waited to chime in on this one...

my vote is NO. the explicit purpose of this forum is for people SELL sign for resale. thats pretty cut and dry

mark galoob

 

[iSign]

To Centr Signs and Custom Graphics, the must-pay business model has been discussed at length here, more than once... peraps without the free few months part, but in any case, the research Fred has done shows a likelihood of dramatically smaller membership, and right now the merchant subscriptions actually fund this site far far more than membership dues... to the point that no increase in membership revenues would offset the unavoidable decline in advertising sponsorship dollars, resulting from the smaller community being less valuable to market to.

 

[Jim Schneck]

First of all I applaud the hard work Fred does in screening those that try to enter our little community. I've done pretty much nothing here of late so his work has been even harder, but I have seen some of those registrations and I understand the time it takes to look at each and every one and follow up on it. Of course one or two may slip in that really shouldn't be here... but all in all there is a reason they were let "inside" our door. And we ought to give Fred the courtesy of our respect that he knows what he is doing.

I say someone working in an in-house sign shop is generally every bit as much of a sign-maker as a lot of the people already here. And in the larger shops they have resources and training that many members on this forum could benefit from. I sure don't know everything about signs and frankly I don't think any one person does.

If the argument is that they are taking work from your shop - wrong. The worldwide economy, the availability of equipment and the advent of the internet are what is taking that type of work from your shop. If a company can more affordably do a job in house - they are going to. It is the nature of a free market and a profit/loss sheet. You do it. I do it. Every company weighs the benefits and negatives to doing something in house. And again - in my opinion - a signmaker is a signmaker... and a hack is a hack. Not usually too hard to spot the difference.

So Joe with his lawn business and vinyl cutter probably won't get much help - or much good help. But that is our choice to pick who we want to share our knowledge with. So I think we should let 'em in... and reserve the tar and feathers until such time that they have shown they deserve it. If we don't quit running the new kids out of town, pretty soon the town will die.

 

[Graphics2u]

Who should you really be concerned about?

I really don't have a strong opinion either way on this question. I understand both sides of the thinking. But it got me to thinking about who should we really be concerned about as competition? I started a Poll many years ago, Here it is: http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15359

And if you notice nearly 25% of those Members responding are in this business Part Time, or work signs on the Weekends or only as a hobby. 25%!!! And 23% work from a Home Shop with no retail location. So nearly 50% of those that responded don't have a retail shop or Storefront. And yet there is this much conversation about allowing some larger in-house shops in as members???

Don't get me wrong at all here, I have NOTHING against working from Home. In fact if I could I would. But it's these other members are our competition, yet we all hang out here together and swap stories and information to help one another. And that seems to be a good thing. But simply because someone works for a large corp that produces it's own signs is no reason what so ever to deny them the opportunity to to the same information.

Everyone here wants their business to grow and you do that by looking at the most cost effective way of operating it. Many times when someone firsts starts out they sub out all their printing. Then they buy a small printer and only sub out the big stuff. then they buy a larger printer an nearly do everything themselves. All of those transitions took business away from their subcontractor. In reality that is very similar to these larger businesses making decisions to start making their own signs, it was solely a business decision to improve their bottom line. If they can improve their bottom line by doing so why shouldn't they? We all would.

What should really get under our skin is manufacturers and suppliers who are now marketing products like desktop Eco-sol printers to small businesses, the businesses that are the real food on our tables. Just click Print and your ready to go!

So i guess I'm saying I don't have a problem with it.

 

[Bobby H]

I voted "yes," but in the end the yes/no decision boils down to a case by case basis on who is applying to join Signs 101. It's a very complicated situation.

We have our own ideas of what makes a sign maker a real, qualified sign maker and some of that comes from our own backgrounds and perspectives of where we're working in the industry.

From my own point of view I don't like companies who aren't real full service sign makers trying to take work away from me or further push down the wage scales of graphic designers. Window tinting outfits, printing shops or even freaking Sam's Club all try to dabble in sign making from time to time and undercut real sign makers. Then there's those volume outfits that have an army of traveling high-pressure salesmen hocking garbage signs to unsuspecting small businesses.

I don't have much regard to the self-taught amateurs trying to run a cut rate sign company from their residential garage. It's one thing if the person has the professional work experience and education to be qualified to start his own shop. Typically that's not what's happening. Most often it's someone with very little talent for graphic design jumping in from a get rich quick money making angle. A garage sign maker at least has to invest in things like a large format printer or vinyl cutter and software to control it.

Self-taught amateurs passing themselves off as graphic artists often have minimal investments in hardware, nothing in terms of formal education or training and zero dues paid to jump into the business. Just illegally download some apps and fonts and hit the ground running. And then real sign designers like me get to deal with the rancid looking results when asked to incorporate the garbage into a permanent sign that's going to visually assault the landscape for years to come. The graphic design profession has been twisted into something more like a Karaoke contest. It's Happy Camp where every child is an artist and everyone gets a gold star!

I'm not too worried about beer distributors making their own banners. Their stuff is typically ugly, but it's temporary. I don't really see what they would be bringing or taking away from discussions at Signs 101. A small business practicing home made "self signage" is probably too cheap to worry about either. A real sign company can't really afford to waste time on the cheapskates.

I'm not too worried about prison sign shops either since they're mainly making license plates or big green signs for Interstate highways.

I have no problem with a major corporation who has its own in-house sign development team as long as they know what they're doing. I've encountered some that know their stuff and others who don't. Generally none of these guys are trying to take work away from me. Often they have too much work to handle or they need someone local and competent to get a specific project done right.

Not all "real sign companies" are immune from my flames. More than a few of them staff their design departments and other areas of the operation on the basis of the cheapest wage. Despite most sign ordinances requiring UL or similar listing on electric signs (National Electric Code also requires this) many sign shops are still building electric signs that are not listed, not compliant with code and even flat out dangerous. I'm highly suspicious some of the "lowest price" oriented companies are paying their employees cash under the table and off the books to dodge taxes and insurance costs. Some may even be hiring workers who are in the country illegally. If most home builders, roofers, landscapers, custodial operations and other industries can hire illegal migrant workers, why shouldn't sign companies hire the same people? Outsource the design duties to some folks in India and insource illegal, off the books labor for the stuff that needs to be done locally.

In the end, all I can do is keep my nose to the grindstone doing the best job I can. The amateurs and cheapskates all come and go very fast and very frequently.

 

[iSign]

Self-taught amateurs passing themselves off as graphic artists...

...It's Happy Camp where every child is an artist and everyone gets a gold star!

this!!

 

[signmeup]

Well BobbyH... perspective is a funny thing. I started my own sign business in my residential garage with no experience or education. From my perspective I'm a "real sign shop" because I make real signs. What do you make? Do you even have a business?

 

[Bobby H]

I won't get too specific since I like to keep some level of anonymity so my opinions won't risk reflecting badly on my work place.

I'm senior designer at a sign company that has been in business over 50 years, has 20 employees and over 20,000 square feet of shop space. Personally, I have been doing graphic design work since the late 1980s. I went to art school in New York City and have a BFA degree (Illustration major).

I'm sorry if I don't seem exactly generous toward just anyone and everybody trying to get into this business, particularly the creative aspect of it. Anyone designing permanent signs has a great deal of civic responsibility resting on his or her shoulders. Bad looking signs infect and pollute a city's visual landscape on a long term. Bad signs accumulate. I've seen a LOT of self taught sign designers basically not care about that responsibility and even take pride in not really knowing what they're doing when working with type, color, etc.

The vast majority of people SUCK at design. They have no talent at it. Computer applications don't make any difference in this even though so many amateurs believe that's all they need. If I buy the same kind of guitar Eddie Van Halen uses should I expect to instantly play as good as him? Will I play golf as good as Tiger Woods if I buy the same clubs he uses? Obviously not. Talent for art and design is really no different. The really sad thing is many bad designers don't have the eye needed to tell the difference between good and bad graphic design. So when they produce garbage they think it looks good enough anyway. Just get that money.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Well Bobby, I'll admit that there's a lot of poor design around but there's also a lot of buyers that won't pay more than the lowest price for a sign ... so it's as much attitude as a lack of skill. My own observation is that when you separate the buyers that actually want a design from the ones that that just want text pleasantly stuck to something, the majority of the ones wanting a design are submitting it as a digital file anyway.

There are some things going on in the "business" of making signs that have been barely touched on but are accounting for where a lot of the business is going. Everyday jobs are getting diluted to too many producers including some do-it-yourselfers, hobbyists and in-house shops ... but mostly to new departments for existing graphics producers like commercial printers and screen printers adding wide format digital etc. It's a no brainer for them because very little overhead is added and most or all the skills are already present. As long as they knock out enough work to cover the machine payment, it's a plus in their business.

Full time sign shops who depend on banners and interior graphics are the losers and they may be blaming the loss of business on the wrong group.

 

[Bobby H]

I'm not going to sweat the loss of a banner. Permanent electric signs, freestanding or attached to a building, is another matter. I don't think just anyone should be designing something that's going to be part of the outdoor visual landscape for possibly 10 or 20 years or longer. I hate ugly signs. They contribute to urban blight and inspire the anti-signs crowd to make sweeping, restrictive ordinances that don't do anyone any good.

I've been in the sign business long enough to see how going with the lowest bidder can bite a company in the rear very hard.

For example, there's a church who is currently begging us to fix the electronic variable message center on their street sign. We bid on the project a couple or so years ago. They bought their sign and message center from an out of state outfit and hired one of our competitors to install it. They saved a lot of money up front. But now the sign doesn't work. The message center is some no-name unit made in China with all the documentation in Chinese; who knows if the company is even still in business. Basically, this church is out of luck. Message center parts are not standardized. You can't mix and match driver boards, controllers and other parts from one manufacturer's product line into another. If they had bought from us their sign would have been fixed immediately.

Some businesses will go the cheapest route because they mistakenly assume all signs are the same and all sign companies have the same quality of people and output the same quality of work. Compounding this, many can't really tell the difference between good and bad graphic design. This is what allows those with amateur level skills and lacking talent to slide. To top it off they don't think about all the stuff that happens months or years after the sign has been installed. A cheap sign may be cheap up front, but it can be very expensive to a business in other ways.

A good sign company will strive to maintain long term customer relationships. That isn't done by being the cheapest. A good product and good customer service will do far more to strengthen a sign company's reputation. Our company has been very busy lately. Some of that business has come from customers who have been burned by certain competitors.

As for companies "who want a design" and submit it as a digital file for us to produce. Sometimes they'll submit something that isn't bad at all. However, I've seen a lot of very unprofessional work given to us from so-called professional graphics people. Just this week I dealt with a "print ready logo" that consisted of a .PNG image cobbled together in Adobe Fireworks. It looked horrible. Sadly, the customer will probably want us to stick that awful looking thing onto the street sign I originally designed.

 

[Dave Drane]

I'm not going to sweat the loss of a banner. Permanent electric signs, freestanding or attached to a building, is another matter. I don't think just anyone should be designing something that's going to be part of the outdoor visual landscape for possibly 10 or 20 years or longer. I hate ugly signs. They contribute to urban blight and inspire the anti-signs crowd to make sweeping, restrictive ordinances that don't do anyone any good.

I've been in the sign business long enough to see how going with the lowest bidder can bite a company in the rear very hard.

For example, there's a church who is currently begging us to fix the electronic variable message center on their street sign. We bid on the project a couple or so years ago. They bought their sign and message center from an out of state outfit and hired one of our competitors to install it. They saved a lot of money up front. But now the sign doesn't work. The message center is some no-name unit made in China with all the documentation in Chinese; who knows if the company is even still in business. Basically, this church is out of luck. Message center parts are not standardized. You can't mix and match driver boards, controllers and other parts from one manufacturer's product line into another. If they had bought from us their sign would have been fixed immediately.

Some businesses will go the cheapest route because they mistakenly assume all signs are the same and all sign companies have the same quality of people and output the same quality of work. Compounding this, many can't really tell the difference between good and bad graphic design. This is what allows those with amateur level skills and lacking talent to slide. To top it off they don't think about all the stuff that happens months or years after the sign has been installed. A cheap sign may be cheap up front, but it can be very expensive to a business in other ways.

A good sign company will strive to maintain long term customer relationships. That isn't done by being the cheapest. A good product and good customer service will do far more to strengthen a sign company's reputation. Our company has been very busy lately. Some of that business has come from customers who have been burned by certain competitors.

As for companies "who want a design" and submit it as a digital file for us to produce. Sometimes they'll submit something that isn't bad at all. However, I've seen a lot of very unprofessional work given to us from so-called professional graphics people. Just this week I dealt with a "print ready logo" that consisted of a .PNG image cobbled together in Adobe Fireworks. It looked horrible. Sadly, the customer will probably want us to stick that awful looking thing onto the street sign I originally designed.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said!

 

[signmeup]

Bobby... some excellent points.

Unfortunately(?)I think we're stuck with the current system. I put the question mark in because I can't argue for more qualifications for sign designers since I have none. I would be out of work if I was required to have some sort of sign/design education. So would a lot of people on this site.

 

[Bobby H]

I can forgive someone being "self taught" if they're actually talented and producing good looking, effective work. Unfortunately this requires the self taught guy to really learn about graphic design on his own. Many do not. Most simply fly by the seat of their pants and the end result really shows. I had loads of raw talent before I went to art school. The formal education helped me focus that talent more effectively.

Out of competitors in my part of Oklahoma there's only 1 or maybe 2 other guys at rival shops who have any real artistic talent and know how to design for the outdoor "out of home" environment. One of the guys specializes in painting murals.

I've run into quite a few people doing sign design work (even a former co-worker or two) who merely saw sign design as a mere job. Just crank things out and get it done. It's not art. So don't bother fussing with it. The problem with that attitude is a business sign next to the street is FAR more visible to the public than any painting hanging in a gallery. If it looks like garbage or generic, uninspired stuff it's going to be looking like that in an extremely public way for possibly a very long time. Might as well make a giant piece of brown poo and put it on a pole 20' up in the air and have it on display for 1 or 2 decades. Pretty unpleasant.

 

[signmeup]

I hear ya Bobby. Try to spin it into a positive... stuff like you describe just makes my stuff look better.

I think we've strayed a wee teeny bit off topic here... I say let smarter people than me decide who gets in... like our fearless leader Fred.

 

[Bobby H]

Hey, I voted "yes" but clarified the choice was very complicated. There is no niche within the sign industry that is without sin.