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Signs 101 Membership Qualifications
- Thread starter Fred Weiss
- Start date
I hate to spoil your linguistic "member" waving session but could you direct me to the portions of your earlier post which meet the benchmarks for a "valid posting" as outlined in this second post.
As is typically the case I find myself distracted by your horrible style of prose. Long winded essays designed to incorporate as many large, "impressive" sounding words as possible in the fay hope of sounding intellectual are somewhat counter productive in your case.
Whilst you are trawling through your indispensable companion edition of the Oxford English dictionary in search of smorgasbord of suitably impressive weapons for rebuttal you may want to ponder the deeper implications of your initial post;
Signs is signs..... should this be the case I await your detailed technical explanation of how you propose to design, construct and implement something like.... oh, I don't know... a full set of three dimensional stainless steel letter shapes. For the sake of this exercise I will define the criteria thus;
Each letter shape must be a completely enclosed shape in three dimensions. The internal cavity must be fitted with a suitable light source which must transmit an even, uniform amount of light through acrylic letter fronts. Each character must be designed & manufactured in such a manner that they will sit on an over hanging roof structure on the clients building. The roof is currently protected by a waterproof membrane which must not be pierced by the installation process. All metal structures are to be constructed from 316 material. The construction & installation methods must comply with the relevant BS EN regulations, a full set of wind loading calculations are mandatory at the quotation stage.
The limiting factors are that you are to perform every stage of design, fabrication and installation without input from others. You may not use any subcontractors, you may not consult any other party.
Signs is signs so a chap with a vinyl cutter and a digital printer can manufacture anything... or not.
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
So then, anyone not capable of doing this is not a sign maker? This fantasy fabrication task represents the epitome of sign making? A being that hand letters sho-cards is not a sign maker?
Signs is signs. A 7"x11" shelf talker is every bit as much of a sign as the fictional behemoth you describe. Actually it's more of a sign, your particular fiction is far more engineering feat than an exercise in sign making. The only reason one might even call it a sign is that the result is supposed to say something.
Craig Sjoquist
New Member
The one thing I like about Signs 101 is the freedom it has positive to negative, related to un-related it is all there.
Times have changed the sign market greatly and now all sorts companies have in house sign advertising shops, this is NO REASON that they should not be able to join.
I also would have a problem with scrapbook makers and brokers more then in house shops.
Times have changed the sign market greatly and now all sorts companies have in house sign advertising shops, this is NO REASON that they should not be able to join.
I also would have a problem with scrapbook makers and brokers more then in house shops.
Just Another Sign Guy
New Member
i am a member of 2 'professional organizations' that are TOTALLY unrelated to this industry in any way.
the problem that we encounter is that anyone can call themselves what we call ourselves (if they have earned the skills or not) anyone can buy the 'tools' if they can properly use them or not is another discussion.
so what we do is we allow them in for on a trial basis. during that trial basis they must meet with a small group usually three members who have been recognized by the organization and then they can show that they do in fact have the skills. if they do not we simply and politely tell them that they are not ready yet and that they are welcome to reapply when they are ready and we even give them guidance as well as classes, workshops, etc., to prepare people who would like to become members.
the benefit of this is that EVERYONE who is in the organization knows that we all posess a level of competence additionally anyone who is a member is allowed to list the organization or (both organizations if they have earned them) on their resume, business cards, etc. that are WELL recognized in this industry because everyone who is in the 2 organizations knows you don't simply pay your dues, it is earned from years of practice.
not for a moment do i thnk that this needs to be as strict, but it could easily be adopted.
the problem that we encounter is that anyone can call themselves what we call ourselves (if they have earned the skills or not) anyone can buy the 'tools' if they can properly use them or not is another discussion.
so what we do is we allow them in for on a trial basis. during that trial basis they must meet with a small group usually three members who have been recognized by the organization and then they can show that they do in fact have the skills. if they do not we simply and politely tell them that they are not ready yet and that they are welcome to reapply when they are ready and we even give them guidance as well as classes, workshops, etc., to prepare people who would like to become members.
the benefit of this is that EVERYONE who is in the organization knows that we all posess a level of competence additionally anyone who is a member is allowed to list the organization or (both organizations if they have earned them) on their resume, business cards, etc. that are WELL recognized in this industry because everyone who is in the 2 organizations knows you don't simply pay your dues, it is earned from years of practice.
not for a moment do i thnk that this needs to be as strict, but it could easily be adopted.
GAC05
Quit buggin' me
iSign
New Member
I find it somewhat amusing, juvenile though it may be, that the prison sign shop name initials are the acronym for Pain In Ass
GypsyGraphics
New Member
i dunno... i'd like to think i can get away with calling someone a punk, a meanie or even a pu__y... without worry about having a hit out on me.
i might be able to behave myself but what about poor iSign and Gino? we'd have to get them a body guards.
speak of the devil, look who jumped in and posted ahead of me! AND HE'S ALREADY CALLING THEM PIA'S!
:ROFLMAO:
Speedsterbeast
New Member
Does this look familiar to anybody?
If you are making or are seeking to make signs and graphic products for your own needs, you have entered a community where you are not welcome. Please do not attempt to register.
In my interprtation, an in-house sign shop would fall under "own needs"
I'm still for letting nearly anyone share info here, but maybe this needs to be re-worded.
If you are making or are seeking to make signs and graphic products for your own needs, you have entered a community where you are not welcome. Please do not attempt to register.
In my interprtation, an in-house sign shop would fall under "own needs"
I'm still for letting nearly anyone share info here, but maybe this needs to be re-worded.
iSign
New Member
um... I realize you are new (because you tried to correct OP's spelling
) ...but you do know who Fred is right?as for your quote, everyone recognizes it... it is of course the reason this poll exists and yes... it would be re worded I'm sure
cdiesel
New Member
This is a difficult one. I for one would be for letting the large in-house sign departments in, but not Joe Plumber with an ebay plotter. I think what my decision boils down to is that the in-house departments aren't harming our community or industry, but the do it yourselfers are.
A large corporation with an in-house sign department is no more taking business from sign shops than other sign shops are. If everyone's so concerned about losing business to in-house departments, they should be equally concerned about losing business to other sign shops.
We deal with some very large corporations that have their own graphics designers, printing departments (small format & large), print purchasing departments, heck, one of our clients purchased the ad agency they were using. We deal with other large corps that do not do anything at all in-house. Some corporations have been in the position and decided it was best for their bottom line to invest in bringing graphics in-house. Others have not.
Most of these companies use such large amounts of graphics that no "regular" sign shop could meet their needs. You're not going to fulfill their needs with a Versacamm. That said, there are a few people here that I wouldn't consider "regular" shop, and could handle quite a bit of the work they may need.
One thing to consider: Any company with an in-house graphics department is likely already to have equipment, know material costs, have figured out overhead costs, etc. They already know what it costs to make signs, how to make them, etc. Letting them in wouldn't be providing them any "secret" information they don't already have.
However, Joe Plumber may not already know what vinyl costs, and if he's just exploring the idea of buying a plotter or whatnot and comes across some of our "secret" info, he may become even more of a PITA customer than before.
I say let the big guys in.
Maybe qualify it with a "marketing budget must be at least XXX amount" clause, or "gross revenues must be at least XXX amount". Marketing budget would have to be at least $2-3m, gross revenues at least $100m.. Much less than that, and I don't believe they have much business with an in-house graphics department.
A large corporation with an in-house sign department is no more taking business from sign shops than other sign shops are. If everyone's so concerned about losing business to in-house departments, they should be equally concerned about losing business to other sign shops.
We deal with some very large corporations that have their own graphics designers, printing departments (small format & large), print purchasing departments, heck, one of our clients purchased the ad agency they were using. We deal with other large corps that do not do anything at all in-house. Some corporations have been in the position and decided it was best for their bottom line to invest in bringing graphics in-house. Others have not.
Most of these companies use such large amounts of graphics that no "regular" sign shop could meet their needs. You're not going to fulfill their needs with a Versacamm. That said, there are a few people here that I wouldn't consider "regular" shop, and could handle quite a bit of the work they may need.
One thing to consider: Any company with an in-house graphics department is likely already to have equipment, know material costs, have figured out overhead costs, etc. They already know what it costs to make signs, how to make them, etc. Letting them in wouldn't be providing them any "secret" information they don't already have.
However, Joe Plumber may not already know what vinyl costs, and if he's just exploring the idea of buying a plotter or whatnot and comes across some of our "secret" info, he may become even more of a PITA customer than before.
I say let the big guys in.
Maybe qualify it with a "marketing budget must be at least XXX amount" clause, or "gross revenues must be at least XXX amount". Marketing budget would have to be at least $2-3m, gross revenues at least $100m.. Much less than that, and I don't believe they have much business with an in-house graphics department.
charissabuskirk
New Member
Seriously? What are we all doing here then? Do you know how many members of S101 have helped me and we're competitors?
ChicagoGraphics
New Member
I experienced both situations with beer distributors, we use to do alot of there advertising work until they brought in there own in-house sign department with inexperienced people that didn't know squat about the sign industry and paid them minimum wage.
Also use to do all the work for the Chamber of commerce (that I belong to) for the 4 fests they have yearly until a beer distributor came in and gave them everything for free just so they could sell there product at the fest. It's all about $$$$$ for the large corporations and they don't care about the small business people.
So I don't think this airline should be on Signs 101. Besides they are an airline that just so happen to have an in-house sign shop.
Also use to do all the work for the Chamber of commerce (that I belong to) for the 4 fests they have yearly until a beer distributor came in and gave them everything for free just so they could sell there product at the fest. It's all about $$$$$ for the large corporations and they don't care about the small business people.
So I don't think this airline should be on Signs 101. Besides they are an airline that just so happen to have an in-house sign shop.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Personally, I don't have a problem with companies that already have these huge graphic departments in place at their warehouse or headquarters at all coming on board... in theory.
I'm more against the probability of large companies conversing amongst themselves at various conventions they attend, where we're totally not invited... and discussing where to get information to get their companies into the full sign package market on their own. We have two large companies for which we do quite a bit of work. If they'd stumble across this site, they'd probably start asking questions..... right here. They both already have a nice large graphics departments, marketing people and whatever, but they don't produce anything in-house because they don't understand the sign world.... so they think. Coming to a place like this would only take them a few weeks or so until they realized they just might be able to cut us out of the picture.
I'm not concerned with a huge airline company or even some nationwide trucking company..... or the beer distributors, but before they owned EQUIPMENT, they came to sign makers and we did their work. In fact, one local company when I was young, hired me to work for them like three days a week. They wanted me to work for them full time, but I wanted to remain on my own and not be part of the corporate force. They showed me all of the benefits, retirement packages and all the other perks. All of my family thought I was nuts for turning it down, but within three or four years, they closed that shop down and had another branch quite a distance away start doing all of their work. It was still being done in-house, but far away. Anyways, before everything was automated and made so easy that anyone can now be in this industry, they were at our mercy to sell to them. Now, by sheer size, you want to let them in and take more business away from people already serving many of these companies by providing the final nail in some shop's coffins.
All I'm saying is..... I can't see any large company coming here and contributing very much. Sure, there will be the occasional bone thrown to us to keep the masses happy, but why would any company that has all the money in the world hire a nincompoop and send them here to learn ?? They will be here to suck us dry more than help this community.
Other than many of the Merchant Members... selling supplies or equipment, I don't see how this could help our general membership.
Again, it might not effect any one particular shop reading this thread, or in our membership, but it will certainly hurt shops around the country and possibly in other countries.
Not to mention... this whole thread is in the totally 'Open Forums', where any lurker, visitor or has-been customer can be reading this already. Some of you call it paranoia... I see it as just common sense. After all, this is the largest and best sign forum known..... it shows up anytime someone googles sign questions. If you think outsiders are not reading this, you must be crazy. There's enough information here in this one thread alone, to peek any company's curiosity as to how to obtain equipment and personnel and cut their local or authorized sign shop out of the picture.
I'm more against the probability of large companies conversing amongst themselves at various conventions they attend, where we're totally not invited... and discussing where to get information to get their companies into the full sign package market on their own. We have two large companies for which we do quite a bit of work. If they'd stumble across this site, they'd probably start asking questions..... right here. They both already have a nice large graphics departments, marketing people and whatever, but they don't produce anything in-house because they don't understand the sign world.... so they think. Coming to a place like this would only take them a few weeks or so until they realized they just might be able to cut us out of the picture.
I'm not concerned with a huge airline company or even some nationwide trucking company..... or the beer distributors, but before they owned EQUIPMENT, they came to sign makers and we did their work. In fact, one local company when I was young, hired me to work for them like three days a week. They wanted me to work for them full time, but I wanted to remain on my own and not be part of the corporate force. They showed me all of the benefits, retirement packages and all the other perks. All of my family thought I was nuts for turning it down, but within three or four years, they closed that shop down and had another branch quite a distance away start doing all of their work. It was still being done in-house, but far away. Anyways, before everything was automated and made so easy that anyone can now be in this industry, they were at our mercy to sell to them. Now, by sheer size, you want to let them in and take more business away from people already serving many of these companies by providing the final nail in some shop's coffins.
All I'm saying is..... I can't see any large company coming here and contributing very much. Sure, there will be the occasional bone thrown to us to keep the masses happy, but why would any company that has all the money in the world hire a nincompoop and send them here to learn ?? They will be here to suck us dry more than help this community.
Other than many of the Merchant Members... selling supplies or equipment, I don't see how this could help our general membership.
Again, it might not effect any one particular shop reading this thread, or in our membership, but it will certainly hurt shops around the country and possibly in other countries.
Not to mention... this whole thread is in the totally 'Open Forums', where any lurker, visitor or has-been customer can be reading this already. Some of you call it paranoia... I see it as just common sense. After all, this is the largest and best sign forum known..... it shows up anytime someone googles sign questions. If you think outsiders are not reading this, you must be crazy. There's enough information here in this one thread alone, to peek any company's curiosity as to how to obtain equipment and personnel and cut their local or authorized sign shop out of the picture.
charissabuskirk
New Member
Not to mention... this whole thread is in the totally 'Open Forums', where any lurker, visitor or has-been customer can be reading this already. Some of you call it paranoia... I see it as just common sense. After all, this is the largest and best sign forum known..... it shows up anytime someone googles sign questions. If you think outsiders are not reading this, you must be crazy. There's enough information here in this one thread alone, to peek any company's curiosity as to how to obtain equipment and personnel and cut their local or authorized sign shop out of the picture.
Here in lies my point. If it's already an open forum what do we have to lose by letting them in? Maybe up the anti for the premium section if they are an end user? But, as SKDAVE said earlier... what makes you think that they aren't already a member of this forum?
Jim Schneck
New Member
I am of those you speak of!
Like Bigfoot or nessi, one wonders if I really exist and what I might look like.
Do I poke my head in and try to understand the strange language you speak. Mahl stick, Pounce Bag, Lettering vs Bulletin, MDO, PVC, HDU, LED, CS5.
You would never suspect me for being one, driving to work in a sports sedan (my PU is provided for me by my big corporation).
We do (gasp) design, print, paint, construct, assemble, install and maintain signs in-house!
We also have carpenters, plumbers, landscapers, mechanics...all in-house.
We don't sell signs...but we do buy signs. We contract Sign shops, Display Shops, Awning shops, Scenery Shops, Large format printers/installers both national and local.
I represent myself here at signs101, not the company I work for. I admire Frank Atkinson, Rand Holub, Mike Stevens.
Bottom line for me is, what is the main intent of this community?
1. To inspire, encourage, share, educate, learn with like minded individuals from different walks of life. Different world views, and different employment scenarios.
2. Focus on the business end. Share tactics, discuss frustrations and victories of being an Entrepreneur.
If the main focus is #2, maybe this isn’t the place for me and other in-house professionals.
Like Bigfoot or nessi, one wonders if I really exist and what I might look like.
Do I poke my head in and try to understand the strange language you speak. Mahl stick, Pounce Bag, Lettering vs Bulletin, MDO, PVC, HDU, LED, CS5.
You would never suspect me for being one, driving to work in a sports sedan (my PU is provided for me by my big corporation).
We do (gasp) design, print, paint, construct, assemble, install and maintain signs in-house!
We also have carpenters, plumbers, landscapers, mechanics...all in-house.
We don't sell signs...but we do buy signs. We contract Sign shops, Display Shops, Awning shops, Scenery Shops, Large format printers/installers both national and local.
I represent myself here at signs101, not the company I work for. I admire Frank Atkinson, Rand Holub, Mike Stevens.
Bottom line for me is, what is the main intent of this community?
1. To inspire, encourage, share, educate, learn with like minded individuals from different walks of life. Different world views, and different employment scenarios.
2. Focus on the business end. Share tactics, discuss frustrations and victories of being an Entrepreneur.
If the main focus is #2, maybe this isn’t the place for me and other in-house professionals.
iSign
New Member
GraphixUnlimited
New Member
.. ya know.. after reading thru all of this and talking about this thread over coffee with my partner here, i have changed my tune on this..
i initially was of the opinion to not train my enemy... but in all reality how could i say no to these people in corporate "sign shops" but help out the newbie who just bought a cutter and wants to make some Dee Cals...
let em join and hopefully they ll hire our services down the road haha.
cheers eh
i initially was of the opinion to not train my enemy... but in all reality how could i say no to these people in corporate "sign shops" but help out the newbie who just bought a cutter and wants to make some Dee Cals...
let em join and hopefully they ll hire our services down the road haha.
cheers eh