Solvent vs Latex.

[petesign]

I'm possibly going to make the plunge and grab another wide format printer. My JV-33 is getting long in the tooth, and honestly I could use a 64" or wider printer instead of my 54"

Now, here's where I am torn. Should I get another solvent printer, or grab a latex?

Plus for latex - My thinking is the latex is cheaper to maintain, offers a wider variety of materials I an print on, and doesnt require outgassing.

Plus for Solvent - Proven technology, my mimaki has been running every day for six years with very few outages, im already all set up for a solvent machine.


Am I wrong here? Does latex ink hold up as well on, say banner material, as a solvent? If i am printing 100 banners, will the first one be the same color as the last? (im currently having some ink starvation on dark blues that shows up after around 100 feet of material, and I cant seem to figure it out... nobody notices but me... but I notice.

I dont wrap a lot of cars. I avoid it if i can, but do see the benefit of latex there. What am I missing, and what is everyone leaning towards these days?
Thanks in advance!

 

[synergy_jim]

dont assume latex is cheaper to maintain. I'm on my 3rd Roland eco solvent printer in the last 10 years and I've spent maybe $1000.00 total over those 10 years on maintenance.

 

[tylercrum]

I used to run a JV3, switch to latex about 5 or 6 years ago and never looked back. One of the first trucks I ever wrapped 5 or 6 years ago came back in recently, someone had dinged up the bed of the truck in a parking lot, printed another panel and didn't even have to manipulate colors or anything. It matched from years ago. We run the 6 year old L25500 and we have the new 360. The only time we've ever had color issues is if we let the environment change (temperature, humidity etc). If you maintain those constantly and consistently, like we do, I'd venture to say I'd be shocked if you were to have color issues. I know people have had color issues, and I'm not saying they don't exist, but we haven't had any...
We run everything on our latex's. banners, posters, vehicle wraps, mounted signage, etc
Printheads run you $85-125 each depending on what franchise you may or may not belong to and network pricing etc.
Currently we've run about 4000ml of ink through each head on our 360 and they're not showing any signs of needing to be replaced.

 

[petesign]

Hmm, what about Mimaki vs HP? Ive been tempted to keep the 54" Mimaki for print and cut jobs, and using the latex for banners.... do the new mimaki's use the old rasterlink rip?

 

[tylercrum]

If you're talking mimaki solvent, that's out of my wheelhouse anymore. If you're talking mimaki latex, I would run as fast as you can the other way and never look back...we had one and it was a paper weight. Finally got rid of it here recently and don't miss it one bit.

 

[CanuckSigns]

We just got the new Roland VG-640 and so far it's a really great machine! the inks are supposed to be dry enough to laminate after an hour (they are definitely drier to the touch off the printer than our last roland) The print speed is great, I can print a 4x8 in around 10-12 minutes. The OEM ink is a bit cheaper on this machine vs. eco-sol max, and the carts are a bit bigger.

We've only had rolands over the last 10+ years, never had to replace a print head, no major maintenance. One of our employees ran a HP latex at the last shop he was at, and from what he tells me the Roland is much more of a production machine, something was always needing replacement on the HP, printheads, maintenance trays, little plastic bits that always seemed to snap off.

What swayed us to the roland was a few things:
1) we are familiar with them, having used them in the past
2) there are 2 techs within a 30 minute drive of my shop
3) our shop is not air conditioned, right now it's 100 degrees outside, and not much cooler inside, the last thing I want is a printer that puts out as much heat as the HP! Plus our employee tells me the last shop he worked at had major issues with the HP not printing properly untill they built a climate controlled room for it.

 

[danno]

We have both here and I personally prefer the solvent/eco solvent. The HP Latex does generate a substantial amount of heat, but is not as maintenance free as you are lead to believe. I would suggest taking some of your files and printing on the 2 or 3 printers you are leaning toward to demo the machines. Sorta like a test drive.

 

[ExecuPrintGS]

Our CJV30-130 just died last week.
We were forced to make a change, and make it quick.
For a long time the long term goal was to switch to latex for us. Simply because of the amount of vehicle graphics and wraps we do and the demand for quick turn around.
The mimakis are basically bullet proof. In the 3 years we had ours it let me down maybe 2 times. It was easy to use and always reliable. Had it not been for the speed and out gas times we would have gone mimaki again.
We ended up getting the HP L360 ive been lusting over the past few years, along with a 64" graphtec cutter. As our design, production and install guy it has made things a lot faster for me (i can be printing job B while cutting job A) since before our cjv was both our sole printer and cutter. The HP has its quirks i'm trying to get used to. I'm not a huge fan of the loading process (it tends to grab the lead edge of the media off of the backing paper and jam up), but that could be user error at this point since i only have a few hours of production run on it.

Overall i really like the HP, and once i get colors adjusted for some of our bigger clients i'm sure work flow will speed up. Over all i think it ultimately depends what you do and if you need that instant cure or if you don't mind waiting the time to let things outgas.

 

[BigfishDM]

I'm possibly going to make the plunge and grab another wide format printer. My JV-33 is getting long in the tooth, and honestly I could use a 64" or wider printer instead of my 54"

Now, here's where I am torn. Should I get another solvent printer, or grab a latex?

Plus for latex - My thinking is the latex is cheaper to maintain, offers a wider variety of materials I an print on, and doesnt require outgassing.

Plus for Solvent - Proven technology, my mimaki has been running every day for six years with very few outages, im already all set up for a solvent machine.


Am I wrong here? Does latex ink hold up as well on, say banner material, as a solvent? If i am printing 100 banners, will the first one be the same color as the last? (im currently having some ink starvation on dark blues that shows up after around 100 feet of material, and I cant seem to figure it out... nobody notices but me... but I notice.

I dont wrap a lot of cars. I avoid it if i can, but do see the benefit of latex there. What am I missing, and what is everyone leaning towards these days?
Thanks in advance!

Well the number 1 machine is the HP-360 and number 4 machine in the ENTIRE INDUSTRY is the HP-330, its proven technology for sure. Latex ink will hold up longer than eco-solvent, you wont have to worry about breathing in harmful fumes or disposing your hazardous inks with Latex. Its faster than all the other machines if your into speed. You can run overnight without having to worry about your prints sticking together because its an instant dry ink. I have been dealing equipment and materials in this industry for 20 years and I have sold every piece of equipment you can imagine and without question I would go with Latex if I was running a print shop. I can simply do more applications at a better price than my competitor who runs solvent. Its more scratch resistant then eco-solvent also.

 

[myront]

... once i get colors adjusted for some of our bigger clients i'm sure work flow will speed up...

Yep, we had the same Mimaki and then went with HP360. I've posted many times in this forum concerning the HP printer. I don't like any of it. Still having color match issues. When you're in the middle of doing fleet graphics with the Mimaki and then have to use the HP you will NEVER get the same colors and clients aren't happy. Yep, paper jams with several types of media, loading/unloading is a chore compared to the Mimaki. A monkey could use the Mimaki. Anyone who goes with HP better be prepared for lots of research and color profiling. Latex in itself is not an issue. Great no need to gas out you can go right to laminating. That's it. Saves no more print time or ink.

 

[BigfishDM]

Yep, we had the same Mimaki and then went with HP360. I've posted many times in this forum concerning the HP printer. I don't like any of it. Still having color match issues. When you're in the middle of doing fleet graphics with the Mimaki and then have to use the HP you will NEVER get the same colors and clients aren't happy. Yep, paper jams with several types of media, loading/unloading is a chore compared to the Mimaki. A monkey could use the Mimaki. Anyone who goes with HP better be prepared for lots of research and color profiling. Latex in itself is not an issue. Great no need to gas out you can go right to laminating. That's it. Saves no more print time or ink.

Wow you sure have a lot of negative comments about the HP, who have you tried to deal with directly at HP to help solve your issues? When it comes to color its hard for me to believe since the largest contract company in our field runs latex specifically because it can hit colors that solvent machines cannot. I load and unload with our machine and its really not bad, the new 500 series makes it the easiest loading machine out there lol. Did your dealer take the machine out of your place when you were unhappy with the results?

 

[FrankW]

We (as dealers) had some complaints about head crashs, but with attention to a few rules it will not happen very much.

Media loading is a little bit more work and takes a little bit more time than with other printers, but during loading the printer checks media skew, adjust the feed automatically and so on. And the roll off axis is motor driven, will give a permanent tension ... so rolls of different media and weights are really easy to handle.

Color Consistency: there is a new firmware published which let the user set profiles to a "long run consistency mode". Just testing.

Main reasons why people buy latex:

Resistance! Never found a Eco- or Mild-Solvent-Ink with the scratch resistance of the Latex 831 Inks. Chemical resistance too on hard solvent level. People sometimes buy latex just for printing banners (so they don't need to seal them), but switch over to print other media too quickly. No need to laminate just to avoid damages during application.

Print Quality! No Banding issues, very nice uni color areas. Printer checks nozzles permanently and will do a replacement if possible (Jet Mapping), will warn if printhead condition could have effects on the quality. 1'200 Nozzles per inch instead of 180 Nozzles per inch.

Media Compatibility! Current Latex models print nearly anything a Eco-Solvent Printer prints, BUT in addition with nice results on paper, fabrics, cotton canvas and so on. More often washable textile transfers (compared to most Eco-Solvent-Ink). With the latex 360 it is possible to print mesh without liner and so on.

Color Profiling! New profiling system will allow to use any profile created with the internal system with every RIP. Instead of having 80 Profiles available for VersaCamm, 50 for Onyx or 50 for Flexi, for the HP are profiles for more than 600 Medias available, all of them usable with every RIP. Easy possibility to linearize a profile in the machine, or create a totally new one. Not on the same level than enhanced RIP Profile creations, but much more than other competitors have.

Speed: Usable and sellable printing speeds of up to nearly 25qm/h ... without banding.

 

[Signed Out]

Well the number 1 machine is the HP-360 and number 4 machine in the ENTIRE INDUSTRY is the HP-330, its proven technology for sure. Latex ink will hold up longer than eco-solvent, you wont have to worry about breathing in harmful fumes or disposing your hazardous inks with Latex. Its faster than all the other machines if your into speed. You can run overnight without having to worry about your prints sticking together because its an instant dry ink. I have been dealing equipment and materials in this industry for 20 years and I have sold every piece of equipment you can imagine and without question I would go with Latex if I was running a print shop. I can simply do more applications at a better price than my competitor who runs solvent. Its more scratch resistant then eco-solvent also.

Apparently HP pays the best commission also..

 

[BigfishDM]

Apparently HP pays the best commission also..

I would say that is just the opposite! The profit off a latex printer is really pathetic compared to what I can make selling other equipment. I sell what the customer should be using based off their needs not off what I have to offer. I make my living on the materials and Latex can print more materials so that is a big plus for me. Latex isn't always the answer but majority of the time it is.

It was only until recently that I even had access to sell the HP line but if you go through my years of being apart of this site you will see I have promoted the technology since in ever came to market. I am a firm believer of the technology but I am a bigger believer in the company that makes them, HP.

 

[AF]

Yep, we had the same Mimaki and then went with HP360. I've posted many times in this forum concerning the HP printer. I don't like any of it. Still having color match issues. When you're in the middle of doing fleet graphics with the Mimaki and then have to use the HP you will NEVER get the same colors and clients aren't happy. Yep, paper jams with several types of media, loading/unloading is a chore compared to the Mimaki. A monkey could use the Mimaki. Anyone who goes with HP better be prepared for lots of research and color profiling. Latex in itself is not an issue. Great no need to gas out you can go right to laminating. That's it. Saves no more print time or ink.

You can wrap tape around the end of adhesive media that tends to jam and stick during loading to stop the sticking part. I use the edge holders with all medias to eliminate head strikes and jams, free insurance that works. Profiling is part of any professional work flow, not sure why that is a negative. But I agree the machines can be brain damaging until you work through all the nuances. My only complaint is the quality of the service techs in my area ranges from expert to no clue. Never know who will be touching the printer.

Latex is far from perfect, but with only one vendor ruling the roost any development of the technology will be at a slow pace. There are plenty of ways HP can make drastic improvements to the machines, but I expect most of our requests will fall on deaf ears until a true competitor emerges and puts the pressure on. HP is the company that referred to inkjet ink as "liquid gold" back in the 90's, so any developments they create will certainly entail the user needing to buy plenty of consumables.

 

[chester215]

This question seems to come up about once a month or so on this forum.

One of the biggest questions you can ask is about service.
Who can service my printer if it breaks either under warranty or out of warranty.

We settled on a hp 26500 a few years ago and wouldn't go back to solvent for anything.
I have to add i was using a rockhopper outdoor which was OLD and flaky,
but just not having the ink smell in the shop was worth the change.

 

[CanuckSigns]

We (as dealers) had some complaints about head crashs, but with attention to a few rules it will not happen very much.

Media loading is a little bit more work and takes a little bit more time than with other printers, but during loading the printer checks media skew, adjust the feed automatically and so on. And the roll off axis is motor driven, will give a permanent tension ... so rolls of different media and weights are really easy to handle.

Color Consistency: there is a new firmware published which let the user set profiles to a "long run consistency mode". Just testing.

Main reasons why people buy latex:

Resistance! Never found a Eco- or Mild-Solvent-Ink with the scratch resistance of the Latex 831 Inks. Chemical resistance too on hard solvent level. People sometimes buy latex just for printing banners (so they don't need to seal them), but switch over to print other media too quickly. No need to laminate just to avoid damages during application.

Print Quality! No Banding issues, very nice uni color areas. Printer checks nozzles permanently and will do a replacement if possible (Jet Mapping), will warn if printhead condition could have effects on the quality. 1'200 Nozzles per inch instead of 180 Nozzles per inch.

Media Compatibility! Current Latex models print nearly anything a Eco-Solvent Printer prints, BUT in addition with nice results on paper, fabrics, cotton canvas and so on. More often washable textile transfers (compared to most Eco-Solvent-Ink). With the latex 360 it is possible to print mesh without liner and so on.

Color Profiling! New profiling system will allow to use any profile created with the internal system with every RIP. Instead of having 80 Profiles available for VersaCamm, 50 for Onyx or 50 for Flexi, for the HP are profiles for more than 600 Medias available, all of them usable with every RIP. Easy possibility to linearize a profile in the machine, or create a totally new one. Not on the same level than enhanced RIP Profile creations, but much more than other competitors have.

Speed: Usable and sellable printing speeds of up to nearly 25qm/h ... without banding.

I think the new Roland VG series would give the HP a run for it's money in the scratch resistance department, as well as print quality

 

[reQ]

I think the new Roland VG series would give the HP a run for it's money in the scratch resistance department, as well as print quality

How do you like it? I am almost ready to get a new printer but was planing on RF640 (don't need print+cut option)

 

[FrankW]

I think the new Roland VG series would give the HP a run for it's money in the scratch resistance department, as well as print quality

I don't know much about the VG-Series, but I have sold and serviced Roland Printers for a long time, until the VersaCamm Pro.

Roland beats the Latex with the accuracy on fine details, specially with the Epson DX-Heads of the VersaCamm Pro (don't know the new heads). HP have more density depending on the print mode and less potential for banding.

Haven't seen any samples of the VG until now.

 

[jfiscus]

I would also recommend taking a look at the Epson printers available. I have run Rolands, Mimakis, HPs and Epsons. We have two Epsons running now, and an HP for sale.