"Strecth the type to make it look better"

[Bobby H]

I am curious??? Where do you think all of the "Expanded" or "Condensed" type styles came from that I have in my various font collections? Many of them are extended or squashed more than 10% from the regular font.

That's very incorrect, especially if we're talking about professional foundry-quality type families like Helvetica, Akzidenz Grotesk, etc. The various condensed, compressed and extended weights were specifically designed for those proportions. They didn't just take the normal width version of the typeface and then squeeze or stretch it.

It's easy enough to see in an experiment. Set a text string in Helvetica Neue 75 Bold. Then try to squeeze it to match Helvetica Neue 77 Bold Condensed or stretch it to to match Helvetica Neue 73 Bold Extended. The squeezed or stretched letters will not line up with the lettering from the natively condensed or extended fonts.

Old Postscript Type 1 Multiple Master fonts from the 1990's and new (yet rare) OpenType Variable Fonts are the only type technologies that will let users alter letter widths without goofing up the balance of vertical and horizontal strokes. But only if a width axis was something that was designed and engineered into the fonts. Dozens of "master" instances have to be built into each type of variable "axis," be it width, weight, optical size or even serif to sans-serif. The variations do not come via crude stretching or squeezing.

 

[Gino]

Awwww....... you took my fun away. I wanted him to name the phony fonts he thinks are considered alright by today's standards.

Ya know, when this computer font stuff first came out, Gerber was about the only company who literally built fonts. I found out, they put over 400 hours in a single font making sure so many things would work and be perfect from kerning to stroke weight and all else inbetween. Today, these software nerds just steal a font, bastardize it and let the buyer beware. The idiots of today's design force think it's totally acceptable typography. They don't have the first clue about this old school knowledge..... then, they don't care, either. Look at the crap that comes out of most sign shops today. Cripes, just what the OP is complaining about. Ya can't explain a thing to these design geniuses.

 

[2B]

so he creates the proof and is that the proof that customer approves or he creates a draft that you then send to the customer for approval?
If it is the latter, our designers do 2 versions

• as requested
• improved

Yes, it adds more time, but it less than 10 mins, and 95% of the time the improved is selected.
Use this to show how to improve his designs.

 

[eahicks]

I see designers do this to photos and logos as well. If you're trying to make ANY logo larger by stretching it in any way that's NOT proportional, then please, quit your job now.

 

[Andy D]

I am curious??? Where do you think all of the "Expanded" or "Condensed" type styles came from that I have in my various font collections? Many of them are extended or squashed more than 10% from the regular font.

 

[Fred Weiss]

It doesn't apply to every font though.

 

[Bobby H]

I like the top one the most. That's the one that hasn't been stretched. The bottom "Sample Text" example is stupid looking.

Ya know, when this computer font stuff first came out, Gerber was about the only company who literally built fonts. I found out, they put over 400 hours in a single font making sure so many things would work and be perfect from kerning to stroke weight and all else inbetween. Today, these software nerds just steal a font, bastardize it and let the buyer beware.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Adobe was one of the first companies to create digital-based typefaces. Adobe invented the Postscript language, the Type 1 font format, the Multiple Master format and they were involved (along with Apple, Google & Microsoft) in development of the OTF Variable font standard. Modern foundry quality OpenType faces have a lot of great capabilities in them that blow away the old TrueType and Type 1 fonts from 20+ years ago. Even with the latest font building software and Python programming it still takes an insane time commitment to build a fully developed typeface family.

Gerber was a pioneer in creating proprietary sign-making hardware. They made plotters and devices like the Signmaker 4B. Our shop had one of those when I first started my job way too many years ago. For any young ones not familiar with this device it was very rudimentary. The "fonts" were cartridges that plugged into the Signmaker 4B. The original setup didn't even have a monitor, just a tiny text-based LCD display for seeing the text and commands you could type into it. We had a hardware interface added to it that let the MS-DOS version of CASmate control it as a plotter. Being able to see what you were doing on a computer monitor was so much easier.

The idiots of today's design force think it's totally acceptable typography. They don't have the first clue about this old school knowledge..... then, they don't care, either. Look at the crap that comes out of most sign shops today. Cripes, just what the OP is complaining about. Ya can't explain a thing to these design geniuses.

It might be a generalization, but all the people I've seen squeezing and stretching type and doing all sorts of other visually abysmal things to lettering have all been self-taught. They're not students of the craft. The situation is even more disgusting today because there is lots of good information and tutorials about typography and page layout freely available online. No expensive design classes required. They think what they're doing already looks "cool." No need to improve or learn anything new.

I see designers do this to photos and logos as well. If you're trying to make ANY logo larger by stretching it in any way that's NOT proportional, then please, quit your job now.

Many larger companies have brand guidelines documents, booklets, etc listing all their color specs, white space requirements and other useful info. I sometimes get a good a laugh when they include a page of "do NOT do this to our logo" treatment examples. I laugh and say to myself, "yeah, I'd never do something that stupid to a company's logo." But there are plenty of other hacks out there who won't hesitate at distorting a logo or even changing its freaking colors!

 

[Fred Weiss]

Ya know, when this computer font stuff first came out, Gerber was about the only company who literally built fonts. I found out, they put over 400 hours in a single font making sure so many things would work and be perfect from kerning to stroke weight and all else inbetween. Today, these software nerds just steal a font, bastardize it and let the buyer beware. The idiots of today's design force think it's totally acceptable typography. They don't have the first clue about this old school knowledge..... then, they don't care, either. Look at the crap that comes out of most sign shops today. Cripes, just what the OP is complaining about. Ya can't explain a thing to these design geniuses.

No Gino, Gerber didn't build fonts. Companies like Letraset and Compugraphics designed and built them using URW's Icarus font digitizing system. To get fonts Gerber originally made a deal with Compugraphics to let them sell the Arty branded Signmaker machines in return for access to their fonts. Letraset was the Gerber distributor for Japan and Australia and had to sue Gerber to get paid for the fonts of theirs Gerber had misappropriated.

 

[GAC05]

Similar to yoga pants
Sometimes the stretch will work and it is good.
Most times it goes too far and is very bad.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I get needing to vent... that's the only goal of the OP. No one is going to change anything really. I had a call yesterday to install some vinyl on glass.. Another sign company made it and it was Time New Roman font with an outline and some of the text was connected and some had 3/4" spacing... and it was in an arch. The customer noticed it and I explained what "kerning" is. I manually cut the connected letters and adjusted it and he was happy..... but who cares? This happens a lot and no one is going to change it. It just felt good teaching someone a new word and made me feel like I was a professional for a moment.

 

[Bobby H]

I get needing to vent... that's the only goal of the OP. No one is going to change anything really.

Unfortunately the sign industry does little, if anything at all, to police itself in terms of standards and practices. One company or one sign designer that does good work is not going to influence the hacks and cut rate companies who churn out cheap garbage. Design talent, proper knowledge of typography, layout color theory, etc are clearly not prerequisites for entry into this field.

One thing can change a whole heck of a lot: public backlash leading to a severe revision to the local sign code. That's one remedy for dealing with ugly signs, but it ends up hurting both legit sign companies as well as the junk dealers.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Unfortunately the sign industry does little, if anything at all, to police itself in terms of standards and practices. One company or one sign designer that does good work is not going to influence the hacks and cut rate companies who churn out cheap garbage. Design talent, proper knowledge of typography, layout color theory, etc are clearly not prerequisites for entry into this field.

One thing can change a whole heck of a lot: public backlash leading to a severe revision to the local sign code. That's one remedy for dealing with ugly signs, but it ends up hurting both legit sign companies as well as the junk dealers.

lol... no man that's not going to happen and you're way too affected by this. The general public doesn't care... no one will "police" the thousands of independently owned sign business...and they shouldn't. just relax and do good work and dont worry about others....its not that serious.

 

[Johnny Best]

Someone mentioned Gerber. When those first came out people were falling over themselves to buy the vinyl cutting machine that changed the sign industries. People who were selling coffee got into the business and Gerber had on it as part of the layout process a place to enter on how wide you wanted the copy. So if the sign was 36" you punched in 35" and it stretched the copy out to that size.
Everyone was doing it to the signs. The new sign guys did not care, the public did not know any difference, it was everywhere. A 3" font stretched out to 48". Public got their signs fast, these new gold rush "designer" sign guys were making money hand over fist.
This salesman the OP talks of probably grew up staring at laundromat signs while his mother did the families clothes. Sale signs, 25 cents for dryer, soap for sale, the whole place was done by a Gerber freak. The stretching thing might be embedded deep down in his brain along with his loving uncle that use to visit. That is why it is a battle when you mentioned it to him.
Now everyone knows about fonts and kerning and have their favorites like young boys liking a certain Paw Patrol character by the name of Marshall.

 

[Bobby H]

lol... no man that's not going to happen and you're way too affected by this. The general public doesn't care... no one will "police" the thousands of independently owned sign business...and they shouldn't. just relax and do good work and dont worry about others....its not that serious.

You need to take a good look around and observe the urban/suburban planning trends happening in various communities, even right there in the DFW metro area. If you think the general public doesn't care about the effect signs have on the visual character of a community you are fooling yourself.

I've been working in the sign industry long enough to see public backlash happen in numerous communities. Edmond, Oklahoma is getting pretty well known across this state for having a pretty severe sign code. It wasn't always that way. The town fathers starting turning the screws, adding more and more restrictions in response to voter complaints. They recently put down a complete ban on LED-based electronic variable message centers. Previously, when they allowed such signs, messages had to have a 30 second long hold time. At the rate they're going it won't be long before you won't be able to install new street signs any taller than a tombstone there.

In the early 2000's my company had to get into the local political fray because a couple of our city council people wanted to enact a very severe anti-signs ordinance to clean up our town. This was in reaction to a public backlash that was 100% justified.

We had a couple fly-by-night sign companies installing horrid $#!+ all over the place and not even bothering to get a freaking permit to do so. We had a mayor that was looking the other way because he was "pals" with one of these sham companies. The city wasn't enforcing the sign code that was already on the books (even though my company was still following its rules). A bunch of businesses across town had damaged or dilapidated signs that were not getting repaired or replaced. The city landscape was littered with political campaign signs that candidates never bothered picking up after an election. Businesses were sticking yard signs and other off-premise ad signs all over town. One car wash even stuck a non-lighted directional sign in the middle of Sheridan Road on the median strip! The public had every right to be angry about all the dilapidated junk signs and blatant disregard of existing sign code rules.

These council people had been to some upper-class suburbs in Arizona and California where nearly every kind of sign is either banned outright or restricted to minimal sizes. They absolutely loved how the streets were clean and free of clutter. They wanted to transform Lawton into that kind of an appearance. Dealing with signs was an easy place to start. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and my company was allowed to have input on the new sign code along with some local business people. Some new restrictions were added, but nothing severe. The main point was the city government had to enforce the code, which they had been very inconsistent with doing.

Like it or not, sign companies and sign designers have a certain civic responsibility when designing and building something that is going to become a part of the public outdoor landscape for years. When the sign company barfs out cheap, poorly designed, slap-dash trash it is pushing its luck with the general public.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

You need to take a good look around and observe the urban/suburban planning trends happening in various communities, even right there in the DFW metro area. If you think the general public doesn't care about the effect signs have on the visual character of a community you are fooling yourself.

I've been working in the sign industry long enough to see public backlash happen in numerous communities. Edmond, Oklahoma is getting pretty well known across this state for having a pretty severe sign code. It wasn't always that way. The town fathers starting turning the screws, adding more and more restrictions in response to voter complaints. They recently put down a complete ban on LED-based electronic variable message centers. Previously, when they allowed such signs, messages had to have a 30 second long hold time. At the rate they're going it won't be long before you won't be able to install new street signs any taller than a tombstone there.

In the early 2000's my company had to get into the local political fray because a couple of our city council people wanted to enact a very severe anti-signs ordinance to clean up our town. This was in reaction to a public backlash that was 100% justified.

We had a couple fly-by-night sign companies installing horrid $#!+ all over the place and not even bothering to get a freaking permit to do so. We had a mayor that was looking the other way because he was "pals" with one of these sham companies. The city wasn't enforcing the sign code that was already on the books (even though my company was still following its rules). A bunch of businesses across town had damaged or dilapidated signs that were not getting repaired or replaced. The city landscape was littered with political campaign signs that candidates never bothered picking up after an election. Businesses were sticking yard signs and other off-premise ad signs all over town. One car wash even stuck a non-lighted directional sign in the middle of Sheridan Road on the median strip! The public had every right to be angry about all the dilapidated junk signs and blatant disregard of existing sign code rules.

These council people had been to some upper-class suburbs in Arizona and California where nearly every kind of sign is either banned outright or restricted to minimal sizes. They absolutely loved how the streets were clean and free of clutter. They wanted to transform Lawton into that kind of an appearance. Dealing with signs was an easy place to start. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and my company was allowed to have input on the new sign code along with some local business people. Some new restrictions were added, but nothing severe. The main point was the city government had to enforce the code, which they had been very inconsistent with doing.

Like it or not, sign companies and sign designers have a certain civic responsibility when designing and building something that is going to become a part of the public outdoor landscape for years. When the sign company barfs out cheap, poorly designed, slap-dash trash it is pushing its luck with the general public.

Your right about the codes being restrictive on LED signs, banning pole signs and making them small. I live in Frisco and they do all the above which I like. Our town looks much nicer without pole signs and LEDs everywhere, but it's not because companies were bad at design or kerning...its because we dont want to see McDonalds signs for miles in every direction. Its flat here and anything over 3 stories tall can be seen for miles and miles. It really only affects big national retailers... all the small mom and pops are in strip centers and would be limited to tenant panels anyway.

 

[shoresigns]

Ya know, when this computer font stuff first came out, Gerber was about the only company who literally built fonts.

I don't think this is accurate at all, but Gerber does seem to get left out of the design history books, so who knows? If anyone can find documented history of Gerber I'd love to read it.

I found out, they put over 400 hours in a single font making sure so many things would work and be perfect from kerning to stroke weight and all else inbetween.

If 400 hours sounds like a lot of time to spend on a font, you'd be stunned by the reality of it. A font that takes 400 hours to design sounds to me like a bottom-of-the-barrel company that's churning out the cheapest fonts they can make, as quickly as possible, and are most likely copies of existing designs.

Take a company like Hoefler & Co, one of the world's top type foundries. They have somewhere around 16 staff, and I believe almost half of them are focused primarily on designing typefaces. Their stated goal this year is to release 3 original typefaces. Let's say 6 of their 16 staff are designers working full time on the typefaces, do the napkin math and you get about 4,000 hours per typeface, which is a far more realistic number and an order of magnitude higher than 400. The number would be much higher still if you included the supporting work of the other staff running the business, marketing, etc. And I wasn't taking wild guesses at any of those numbers – Netflix actually just released a documentary about them on Wednesday (it's in season 2 of Abstract and it's worth watching).

 

[Gino]

I think some of you are a tad confused. I never said Gerber was designing or creating type faces, let alone new type faces. I could care less who Gerber or any other company screwed on their way to the top. I mostly care about the end results and how it affects my job.

'Building'...... these fonts was a reference to them taking a licensed font and literally making sure kerning space, the rounds, the heights met all kindsa stringent specs. The correct amount for descenders and ascenders when in certain group combinations, while not happening in others. When you put a 'V' next to an 'A' the kerning needs to usually be messed with to make it look correct. Gerber had all those combinations built into their little font keys. Regardless of the size, it remained perfect. You wouldn't see any imperfections. You need to remember, other than Gerber, ANAgraph and one or two other sign software programs, the other fonts were all for printing, not die cutting. Today, the specs could be different as not near as much is die-cut, but the specifications are still the same when comparing. Their font modules were simply amazing.

We're also talking about most fonts looking good when being stretched or squashed too much, not casual fonts or scripts which don't follow the same rules. Knowing the fundamentals would help many of you become better designers and conversationalists on the subjects of your craft.​

 

[Bobby H]

Your right about the codes being restrictive on LED signs, banning pole signs and making them small. I live in Frisco and they do all the above which I like. Our town looks much nicer without pole signs and LEDs everywhere, but it's not because companies were bad at design or kerning...its because we dont want to see McDonalds signs for miles in every direction.

Nevertheless, those restrictions cut way down on the kinds of signs a sign company can sell. That cuts deep into the revenue potential. Our company sells a lot of LED-based variable message centers and other kinds of LED products like price digit signs for convenience stores. Almost all of those products are installed on double sided street signs. There is a lot more money to be made in building a large, legibly effective street sign versus building some little, low profile monument sign motorists can't see for all the friggin' bushes, trees and other landscaping features by the street. The commercial main street might end up looking more clean and pretty, but the brick and mortar businesses aren't nearly as visible to the normal repeat exposure their brand would get from passing traffic. Customers end up having to use their GPS to find the restaurant or store when actually want to visit. I can read most large pylon signs pretty easy when passing by on the Interstate. These little monument signs are barely effective for cars passing close by on the frontage roads.

You called out McDonald's as an example. A regular McDonald's pylon sign with those iconic golden arches is way way more effective as a marketing tool than some little tombstone monument thing bearing a tiny red McDonald's box sign on it.

The sign code restrictions don't stop at pylon signs either. There's gobs of building sign codes. For good measure some cities will demand all sorts of extra drawings, such as scale drawing depictions of signs on the building (not something just pasted into a digital camera photo in Photoshop either). For one of our volume customers we had to re-do a window graphics wrap clear over in Gallup, NM. It turned out the town had a percentage limit of how much of the windows could be covered. Our own guys had installed the original window wrap, which covered all the windows and doors in a mural printed on perforated vinyl. We had to make a far more modest design and arrange for another company to take down the existing wrap and install the revised design.

Restrictive sign codes, like the ones in some North DFW suburbs and even worse ones in CA & AZ, didn't happen by random. "Bad design or kerning," etc has played its part at inspiring these codes. I lived in Yuma, AZ for a few years when I was a kid. I remember how cities in Arizona and Southern California looked back then versus how they do now. Back then the commercial districts had a lot of pylon signs. There was a LOT of neon in use back then. Ugly signs and clutter were also present too. They cleaned up the clutter, but threw out all that was good too. It's like fixing a sprained ankle by amputating the whole leg.

Take a company like Hoefler & Co, one of the world's top type foundries. They have somewhere around 16 staff, and I believe almost half of them are focused primarily on designing typefaces. Their stated goal this year is to release 3 original typefaces. Let's say 6 of their 16 staff are designers working full time on the typefaces, do the napkin math and you get about 4,000 hours per typeface, which is a far more realistic number and an order of magnitude higher than 400. The number would be much higher still if you included the supporting work of the other staff running the business, marketing, etc. And I wasn't taking wild guesses at any of those numbers – Netflix actually just released a documentary about them on Wednesday (it's in season 2 of Abstract and it's worth watching).

I would be curious to see if this documentary covers the acrimonious split between Jonathan Hoefler and Tobias Frere-Jones. Hoefler basically ripped off a fortune from Frere-Jones, who thought he was a partner when H&FJ was founded. Frere-Jones created many of the best typefaces Hoefler & Co still sells, such as the Gotham and Tungsten families. Frere-Jones created a bunch of great families for Font Bureau prior to that.

 

[myront]

Which would you choose and which would the customer choose?

 

[Gino]

None of them. While your lettering is horrid in all three examples, you've broken just about every other element in layout.