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[luggnut]

relative colormetric would be best on most sign stuff... but on all vector i use no color correction in flexi... and photos look best most of the time perceptual. but when i have a sign designed in photoshop (or any raster that is more graphic than photo) i generally RIP it with relative colormetric as it gives more accurate colors..

 

[sjm]

i've never heard of anyone doing that.

design in a known color space and let the RIP work it out.
soft proof with the printer profile maybe? but design with it i don't know about that.

Tovis you can look up rendering intents in the help file or manual with your RIP.. it would probably give a better explaination than i could.

i use perceptual and relative along with no color correction the most.

and most places do use sRGB so if you are sending something out to walmart.com or something you best convert to that space. i use adobe rgb1998 in house and have to convert to sRGB when designing for the web and some outsources or i will get a color change. but adobe rgb allows be more color in house. you just must remember a lot of programs don't support anything but sRGB like email proofs ... so convert the proof to sRGB.

to avoid mistakes and not have to worry about those kinds of things do all designs in sRGB a little more limited space than adobe RGB 1998 but still works.... since most programs by default assume sRGB (including adobe's) you get consistent color without to much color management.

Which colour space are we discussing rgb1998 or srgb? You do realize srgb has a much smaller colorspace?

When you say you soft proof what are using as an output profile?

Exactly what do you mean by no colour correction? Profiles off?

If you use perceptual for images and RC for vector what happens when the bitmap colour and vector colour needs to match on the same artwork?

My example about the RGB pure yellow and having cyan when converted, went to demonstrate not all inks are created equal. The same can be said for cyan and magenta. Rendering intents won't help you there unfortunately.

When you say consistent colour without colour management do you mean that the colour management or (conversion) is being done in Illustrator for example and not the RIP?

 

[luggnut]

Which colour space are we discussing rgb1998 or srgb? You do realize srgb has a much smaller colorspace?

both... i was pointing out that most programs and thing s assume sRGB by default so using that space (even though it is more limited than adobeRGB 19980 is more idiot proof

When you say you soft proof what are using as an output profile?

in flexi i use my printers profile for soft proof in adobe i use generic swopv2

Exactly what do you mean by no colour correction? Profiles off?

flexi has settings on how to render rasters and vectors .. if you set vectors for no color correction you get rich colors when designing in flexi (vectors) if i send a raster i use relative unless it's a photo alone.

If you use perceptual for images and RC for vector what happens when the bitmap colour and vector colour needs to match on the same artwork?

if they are mixed i choose one rendering intent if a vector and raster need to match i choose relative colormetric.
i thought i was pretty clear on that earlier...

My example about the RGB pure yellow and having cyan when converted, went to demonstrate not all inks are created equal. The same can be said for cyan and magenta. Rendering intents won't help you there unfortunately.

RGB pure yellow is getting mapped to the closest color your printer can produce to RGB yellow, its the RIP not the inks making the cyan appear in the yellow. if the design is not a photo and you are choosing the colors of the design you can choose a yellow that doesn't print any cyan...

When you say consistent colour without colour management do you mean that the colour management or (conversion) is being done in Illustrator for example and not the RIP?

No... i'm saying you will get more predictable results with less knowledge if you use sRGB .. so when you send a file or design from one program to another you won't have to worry about embedded profiles or converting profiles yada, yada yada...

example... i have designed for the web and left my color settings on adobeRGB and the designs colors were way off... i didn't convert to sRGB. if i always used sRGB i wouldn't even have to think about that.

if you are moving designs from program to program and all your settings aren't correct or the programs don't recognize embedded profiles you are gonna have inconsistent color... if they all default to sRGB and thats what you use then once again you don't have to even think about color space.

 

[sjm]

both... i was pointing out that most programs and thing s assume sRGB by default so using that space (even though it is more limited than adobeRGB 19980 is more idiot proof



in flexi i use my printers profile for soft proof in adobe i use generic swopv2

then why not just use you printer profile as the source? It's no accident the RGB Yellow to SWOP Yellow had cyan in it. That's what you complained about originally.



flexi has settings on how to render rasters and vectors .. if you set vectors for no color correction you get rich colors when designing in flexi (vectors) if i send a raster i use relative unless it's a photo alone.

Illustrator uses the same rendering intent for both vector and raster.They understand PostScript as they wrote it.

if they are mixed i choose one rendering intent if a vector and raster need to match i choose relative colormetric.
i thought i was pretty clear on that earlier...

as I said I use RC always



RGB pure yellow is getting mapped to the closest color your printer can produce to RGB yellow, its the RIP not the inks making the cyan appear in the yellow. if the design is not a photo and you are choosing the colors of the design you can choose a yellow that doesn't print any cyan...

Sorry it's common knowledge all inks have impurities in them

No... i'm saying you will get more predictable results with less knowledge if you use sRGB .. so when you send a file or design from one program to another you won't have to worry about embedded profiles or converting profiles yada, yada yada...

No what I am saying knowledge produces a better product

example... i have designed for the web and left my color settings on adobeRGB and the designs colors were way off... i didn't convert to sRGB. if i always used sRGB i wouldn't even have to think about that.

We're printing to paper CMYK not to a monitor RGB

if you are moving designs from program to program and all your settings aren't correct or the programs don't recognize embedded profiles you are gonna have inconsistent color... if they all default to sRGB and thats what you use then once again you don't have to even think about color space.

A profile doesn't alter the data it merely tells the application what colorspace it was created in. ie SWOP, or your printers. Simple

SRGB was created for the WWW not for print.

 

[luggnut]

then why not just use you printer profile as the source? It's no accident the RGB Yellow to SWOP Yellow had cyan in it. That's what you complained about originally.

do you know the difference between input and output profiles? RGB yellow to swop? what are you talking about? RGB yellow gets mapped if it is out of gamut of your printer and gets mapped according to what rendering intent you have chosen. we are talking about designing in RGB to maximize the color abilities of the printer ...or at least i am. i'm not going from RGB to swop...




Illustrator uses the same rendering intent for both vector and raster.They understand PostScript as they wrote it.

once again huh? i'm talking about the RIPs rendering intent not illustrator and if you make a file in illy with vectors and rasters or raster effects and have you rip set up with different rendering intents for vectors and rasters the colors will be different. so the RIPs rendering intent is what matters here


as I said I use RC always

there is nothing that should be used ALWAYS.. there are ALWAYS exceptions. why do you think a photolab uses perceptual? it looks better with photos. a sign is most of the time graphics so relative is better in our industry


Sorry it's common knowledge all inks have impurities in them

So?.... we are talking about the benefits of designing in RGB vs. your "CMYK printer profile".. not what inks have problems.


No what I am saying knowledge produces a better product

thats the exact same thing i said!!! if you have the color knowledge then by all means use adobeRGB or in your case this "printer profile" but if you don't and want the easiest way to get predictable RGB color use sRGB

We're printing to paper CMYK not to a monitor RGB

i know that ...but i am talking about maximizing the gamut of the CMYK or CMYKlclm or CMYKOG or what ever inkset... if you use RGB the RIP converts for the printers inkset... when i used a CMYKOG printer you can't get the orange or a lot of other color it was capable of if you didn't use RGB...

A profile doesn't alter the data it merely tells the application what colorspace it was created in. ie SWOP, or your printers. Simple

correct for input profiles...

SRGB was created for the WWW not for print.

sRGB was created for more than just the web quoted from wikipedia

"sRGB is a standard RGB color space created cooperatively by HP and Microsoft in 1996 for use on monitors, printers, and the Internet."

 

[sjm]

then why not just use you printer profile as the source? It's no accident the RGB Yellow to SWOP Yellow had cyan in it. That's what you complained about originally.

do you know the difference between input and output profiles? RGB yellow to swop? what are you talking about? RGB yellow gets mapped if it is out of gamut of your printer and gets mapped according to what rendering intent you have chosen. we are talking about designing in RGB to maximize the color abilities of the printer ...or at least i am. i'm not going from RGB to swop...

Sorry you are wrong. SWOP inks have those inherent impurities I described, speak with anyone who has profiled a digital printer to simulate SWOP.


once again huh? i'm talking about the RIPs rendering intent not illustrator and if you make a file in illy with vectors and rasters or raster effects and have you rip set up with different rendering intents for vectors and rasters the colors will be different. so the RIPs rendering intent is what matters here

No huh? Try as I suggest move your printer icc profile over to the profile folder in either the Mac or Windows platform.

Turn off profiles on your RIP. In Illustrator select your printer profile in the Color Management Menu and Select Let illustrator determine colors. Windows ICM or the Mac's ColorSync does the rest. As I said Adobe wrote the PostScript language they do understand how things work.

there is nothing that should be used ALWAYS.. there are ALWAYS exceptions. why do you think a photolab uses perceptual? it looks better with photos. a sign is most of the time graphics so relative is better in our industry

RC is always the perferred choice in digital printing for reasons I mentioned previously. Though if you strictly output photos as you intimate, Perceptual will do just fine. As it shifts colours around with the intent of tricking the eye but colours will not be colormetrically correct, ie Bitmap vs Vector!

So?.... we are talking about the benefits of designing in RGB vs. your "CMYK printer profile".. not what inks have problems.

We are talking about I thought understanding about the impurities in CMY inks, and how to better deal with that

thats the exact same thing i said!!! if you have the color knowledge then by all means use adobeRGB or in your case this "printer profile" but if you don't and want the easiest way to get predictable RGB color use sRGB

i know that ...but i am talking about maximizing the gamut of the CMYK or CMYKlclm or CMYKOG or what ever inkset... if you use RGB the RIP converts for the printers inkset... when i used a CMYKOG printer you can't get the orange or a lot of other color it was capable of if you didn't use RGB...

Hence why I suggested designing to the printers colour space. Though SWOP seems to be the norm and it is an output profile and both an input profile? In PhotoShop anyways?


sRGB was created for more than just the web

Concur it was expanded to encompass desktop printers i.e hp deskjets plus others to produce more pleasing colour.

It's a pleasure debating with you sir.

 

[luggnut]

So?.... we are talking about the benefits of designing in RGB vs. your "CMYK printer profile".. not what inks have problems.

We are talking about I thought understanding about the impurities in CMY inks, and how to better deal with that

no.. here is a quote from the OP's first post

Also, Does anybody use RGB in this industry?

it has been a great debate... i did enjoy it. you've got me thinking. maybe you could use the printer profile but that is a strange idea to me. and what if you use different profiles for different medias (i'm talking about output profiles ... i think you maybe talking something different)

but it has been a good debate. i have been following the thread were you had posted your ideas about ppi, dpi, printer resolution.... not sure i agree with all of that but i need to study more to make sure.

 

[sjm]

no.. here is a quote from the OP's first post



it has been a great debate... i did enjoy it. you've got me thinking. maybe you could use the printer profile but that is a strange idea to me. and what if you use different profiles for different medias (i'm talking about output profiles ... i think you maybe talking something different)

but it has been a good debate. i have been following the thread were you had posted your ideas about ppi, dpi, printer resolution.... not sure i agree with all of that but i need to study more to make sure.

Dude never stop questioning because tomorrow always brings a new challenge.

If you ever wanted to know how to take super gigapixel pictures with an off the shelf camera visit this site

http://www.gigapansystems.com/

Cheers digital makes everything possible.

 

[Tovis]

Wonderful Color

Quote:

--
"i know that ...but i am talking about maximizing the gamut of the CMYK or CMYKlclm or CMYKOG or what ever inkset... if you use RGB the RIP converts for the printers inkset... when i used a CMYKOG printer you can't get the orange or a lot of other color it was capable of if you didn't use RGB..."
--

So if it works better using an RGB profile to get the CMYKOG printer to run colors that wouldn't do so hot out of a CMYK profile. Would it also be true with a CcMmYyKk or CcMmYK Printer?

With rendering intents in the print industry I guess that:

Relative should be used most of the time especially when a Customer says i need this to match this color.

Perceptual should be used when gradients which endpoints are out of gamut are used in a graphic or when a photo contains colors outside of the gamut to prevent colors from blocking up when it hits the threshold. If this needs to be used, any colors that need to be certain colors should be double checked in the final output or on a test.

Do you agree?

Does anybody know with colorburst and other rips that hone in and preserve pantone spots if this is they are still preserved and remain unchanged with Perceptual?

 

[luggnut]

So if it works better using an RGB profile to get the CMYKOG printer to run colors that wouldn't do so hot out of a CMYK profile. Would it also be true with a CcMmYyKk or CcMmYK Printer?

in my opnion yes.. but it would not be as important if your inkset just adds light cyan and light magenta. RGB can give you yellows with a hint of cyan i and blues that look purple but if you are careful with your setup and profiles and chose the colors yourself (i always choose a yellow that is a very slighty shifted to orange and blue shifted away from purple in photoshops color picker)

With rendering intents in the print industry I guess that:

Relative should be used most of the time especially when a Customer says i need this to match this color.

Perceptual should be used when gradients which endpoints are out of gamut are used in a graphic or when a photo contains colors outside of the gamut to prevent colors from blocking up when it hits the threshold. If this needs to be used, any colors that need to be certain colors should be double checked in the final output or on a test.

to me there is no ALWAYS sometimes you have to do what you must to get the results ..but as a general rule relative for most sign work is best. but there have been times when i create something in photoshop with lots of drop shadows and textures and perceptual looks the best... tone and value in this case was more important than exact matched color.

Do you agree?

Does anybody know with colorburst and other rips that hone in and preserve pantone spots if this is they are still preserved and remain unchanged with Perceptual?

never used colorburst... in fact never have used the pantone look up function of any RIP , so i know nothing there

<!-- / message --> <!-- sig -->

 

[sjm]

Quote:

--
"i know that ...but i am talking about maximizing the gamut of the CMYK or CMYKlclm or CMYKOG or what ever inkset... if you use RGB the RIP converts for the printers inkset... when i used a CMYKOG printer you can't get the orange or a lot of other color it was capable of if you didn't use RGB..."
--

So if it works better using an RGB profile to get the CMYKOG printer to run colors that wouldn't do so hot out of a CMYK profile. Would it also be true with a CcMmYyKk or CcMmYK Printer?

With rendering intents in the print industry I guess that:

Relative should be used most of the time especially when a Customer says i need this to match this color.

Perceptual should be used when gradients which endpoints are out of gamut are used in a graphic or when a photo contains colors outside of the gamut to prevent colors from blocking up when it hits the threshold. If this needs to be used, any colors that need to be certain colors should be double checked in the final output or on a test.

Do you agree?

Does anybody know with colorburst and other rips that hone in and preserve pantone spots if this is they are still preserved and remain unchanged with Perceptual?

My advice to you is to invest in a Pantone Solid to CMYK guide. If you come close in CMYK to the Solid your are doing fine. Not even Pantone can hit the Solid to CMYK colour.

CMYKOG is just another way of saying Pantone Hexachrome and it hasn't really caught fire in the industry at large. No surprise really!

Now we have the Pantone Goe System, and it is about to complicate matters more. 2,058 colours vs 1,114. Yet I think it's still based outside the gamut achieved with process colours ie CMYK. Just my opinion.

 

[Tovis]

We have pantone books and the bridge book. I also have an i1 with a calibrated monitor and i1 share that I want to implement soon.

Colorburst said that on the rip when a spot pantone is recognized that spot runs as Absolute it seems to do better then the CMYK rendition of it. When I make a square with a spot Pantone and put the CMYK equivalent next to it the rip seems to take advantage of the light inks or something to get those pantones closer then the standard CMYK square right next to it.

Curious as to which rips you all use?

For Vuteks we can only really use colorburst or a new one called Fiery XF. With colorburst when we call for tech support once vutek is mentioned we are usually forwarded to some really tech savy people. I've used Flexi's production manager and Rasterlink Pro before on other machines and do have to say that colorburst is really nice once you get to know a lot of the functionality.

Do your rips have an option to do this with pantones or is that only a colorburst thing.

 

[luggnut]

Colorburst said that on the rip when a spot pantone is recognized that spot runs as Absolute it seems to do better then the CMYK rendition of it. When I make a square with a spot Pantone and put the CMYK equivalent next to it the rip seems to take advantage of the light inks or something to get those pantones closer then the standard CMYK square right next to it.

the pantone match in the RIP uses the RIPs version of the pantone color not your design programs .. so when you name a pms color in your design file.. the RIP recognizes it and substitutes its closet match and by your description uses absolute as the rendering intent (i don't know i have never used this pms substitute feature)
pantones in gradients or combined with rasters or raster effects can act crazy.

but your RIP is not just taking advantage of the light cyan and magenta it is how the RIP is interpreting the pms color and then how it renders it.

Do your rips have an option to do this with pantones or is that only a colorburst thing.

to my knowledge flexi does not.. am i right? but i know a lot of the high end RIPs do. i think in flexi's color pallette you can set the rendering intent for individual colors (relative, perceptual, no correction , spot) and get similar results but then you would need to design in flexi. which i almost never do for printed material.

 

[sjm]

We have pantone books and the bridge book. I also have an i1 with a calibrated monitor and i1 share that I want to implement soon.

Colorburst said that on the rip when a spot pantone is recognized that spot runs as Absolute it seems to do better then the CMYK rendition of it. When I make a square with a spot Pantone and put the CMYK equivalent next to it the rip seems to take advantage of the light inks or something to get those pantones closer then the standard CMYK square right next to it.

Curious as to which rips you all use?

For Vuteks we can only really use colorburst or a new one called Fiery XF. With colorburst when we call for tech support once vutek is mentioned we are usually forwarded to some really tech savy people. I've used Flexi's production manager and Rasterlink Pro before on other machines and do have to say that colorburst is really nice once you get to know a lot of the functionality.

Do your rips have an option to do this with pantones or is that only a colorburst thing.

Careful with iShare as at the last time I used it, it only supported the Version 2 ICC profile standard and not the ICC Version 4 profile. On the plus side it's free if you own an iMatch package.

Many of the more savvy RIP's have Pantone colour look up tables. Though funny enough when you run a delta-e comparison on their icc profiles to the Pantone standard many colours have a delta-e greater than 2.

As a Vutek owner as well our clients don't expect a Pantone match when we print to a Black Sintra or on a Chestnut Formica Laminate for example.

I suppose what I am trying to convey is this, what are your client's expectations?

 

[PPS]

Help Roland Versaworks tone curve adjustment

Can someone please help me understand or point to the right direction for a better or more in depth understanding on the science behind the tone curves for the color adjustment with Roland VersaWorks so I can have a better understanding on how and better predict the applied changes. The preview I find in VersaWorks is not very detailed and so therefore hard to tell the applied changes. I know that would all be determined by the value, but I exagerate the changes in the curves and I swear it doesn't seem like any changes were made to the screen. I'm frustrated and don't have the time to do never-ending soft proofs to just to simply see the results. HELP!

 

[iSign]

Someone probably could, & perhaps would... Except now, chances are they are burned out from wading through 35 quasi-unrelated & lengthy posts dredged up from a year ago...

Maybe try starting a new thread in a Roland forum on this site, with a title like "Roland VersaWorks tone curves ?'s"