Summa F1612 tools/questions

[White Haus]

Just wondering what everyone out there is using for tools on the their Summa F-Series cutters? Ours is sitting here in a crate and I'm just trying to round up some last minute items before our training!

We're getting:

-Drag Module
-Tangential Module x2
-Router Module

-Single Edge Cutout tool
-Double Edge Cutout tool
-Heavy Duty Cutout tool

-Is it worth getting the Kiss cutting tool for vinyl? (We already have a Summa S140T)
-Which cutout tool and which creasing tool would you recommend to play around with some packaging/boxes? Not going with the EOT for now unless we find we need it.
-Whats the best tool for cutting coroplast?
-Which router bits do you like best for cutting ACM, acrylic, PVC, etc?
-Did anyone get the wireless remote pack, and is it worth having?
-Does the 0 degree V-cut tool work well for shape cutting foamcore or is another tool better? (aside from EOT)

Thanks guys!

 

[kanini]

We use the double edge cutout knife for most cutout jobs (95%). You can cut thinner plastic sheet substrates with that also but it dulls the blade so we usually change to the Heavy Duty cutout knife for rigids. The kiss cut knife is perfect for very thick laminates such as Substance motocross laminates or similar. For regular cutting vinyl, laminated or unlaminated the drag knife works well so if you don't cut the very thick ones you'll manage fine with the drag knife.

The remote control pack is nice but mostly a show off item if you have your computer nearby. We have ours set up so you sit next to the cutter and sees the cutter behind the screen. That makes us use the remote control very little so if it costs extra I'd leave it out.

The 0 degree V cut has been used now and then but I prefer the heavy duty cutout for the soft sheets (such as coroplast) up to what the heavy duty knife is rated for. For thicker soft sheets the V cut works good but is a bit tricky to set up right, be careful to not cut your mat with it, had to glue mine after the first cut with it =) For foamcore up to 5 mm I'd go with the heavy duty cutout knife instead.

Overall a great machine for cutting so you won't be dissappointed. What software do you get with it? We have the Summaflex and it works fairly well, some bugs and own ideas but the newer software that comes with the F series is better I've heard...?

 

[PHILJOHNSON]

Just wondering what everyone out there is using for tools on the their Summa F-Series cutters? Ours is sitting here in a crate and I'm just trying to round up some last minute items before our training!

We're getting:

-Drag Module
-Tangential Module x2
-Router Module

-Single Edge Cutout tool
-Double Edge Cutout tool
-Heavy Duty Cutout tool

-Is it worth getting the Kiss cutting tool for vinyl? (We already have a Summa S140T)
-Which cutout tool and which creasing tool would you recommend to play around with some packaging/boxes? Not going with the EOT for now unless we find we need it.
-Whats the best tool for cutting coroplast?
-Which router bits do you like best for cutting ACM, acrylic, PVC, etc?
-Did anyone get the wireless remote pack, and is it worth having?
-Does the 0 degree V-cut tool work well for shape cutting foamcore or is another tool better? (aside from EOT)

Thanks guys!

Some quick answers for you -

-Yes, you should absolutely get the kiss cutting tool for roll materials like vinyl, posters, heat transfers, banner materials, etc. It will allow you to cut much more precisely on smaller details on these materials compared to the cutout tools which use much larger blades.
-I would suggest using the EOT(electronic oscillating tool) for cutting cardboard. I know you mentioned that you aren't going with that tool, but I would strongly suggest getting it because you will also need it for cutting coroplast.
-The EOT is the best tool for cutting coroplast and will be required if you plan on cutting complex shapes or curves. You can use the heavy duty tool for straight line cuts, but the blade is much too large to turn while cutting that material and get a clean cut on detailed graphics or curves.
-I would suggest using bits made specifically for each of the materials you listed. Summa has a variety of bits available(32 different options) and down here in the US I would also contact Hartlauer(not sure if they have a Canadian location or not) Bits as they have hundreds of different bit options available.
-The remote pack does save some time setting your origin, material size, up/down position on the tools, etc so it may be a worthwhile investment. I would maybe try operating the equipment without the remote pack to start and add it later if you find you are spending a lot of time setting up those parameters.
-The 0 degree V-Cut tool isn't going to be the best option for shape cutting foam. The better tool for that application would be the POT-L(pneumatic oscillating tool long, which uses longer blades).

Best regards,

Phil Johnson
Airmark Corporation
(800)527-7778, ext 112
philj@airmark.com

 

[jerry369]

We have the Summaflex and it works fairly well, some bugs and own ideas but the newer software that comes with the F series is better I've heard...?

You can download the software GoProduce from Summa website and activate a free 30-day trial to evaluate it

 

[greysquirrel]

You will want the EOT and the kiss cutting tool. The EOT will cut material more intricate and the kiss cut is super fast at finishing vinyl(better than your 140)

 

[White Haus]

We use the double edge cutout knife for most cutout jobs (95%). You can cut thinner plastic sheet substrates with that also but it dulls the blade so we usually change to the Heavy Duty cutout knife for rigids. The kiss cut knife is perfect for very thick laminates such as Substance motocross laminates or similar. For regular cutting vinyl, laminated or unlaminated the drag knife works well so if you don't cut the very thick ones you'll manage fine with the drag knife.

The remote control pack is nice but mostly a show off item if you have your computer nearby. We have ours set up so you sit next to the cutter and sees the cutter behind the screen. That makes us use the remote control very little so if it costs extra I'd leave it out.

The 0 degree V cut has been used now and then but I prefer the heavy duty cutout for the soft sheets (such as coroplast) up to what the heavy duty knife is rated for. For thicker soft sheets the V cut works good but is a bit tricky to set up right, be careful to not cut your mat with it, had to glue mine after the first cut with it =) For foamcore up to 5 mm I'd go with the heavy duty cutout knife instead.

Overall a great machine for cutting so you won't be dissappointed. What software do you get with it? We have the Summaflex and it works fairly well, some bugs and own ideas but the newer software that comes with the F series is better I've heard...?

Thank you very much for the detailed response! Really appreciate it.

I think I'll add the kiss-cut tool and skip the V cut for now. Good to know about the remote - I might still go with it since our computer will be located near the back of the unit so it might come in handy.

I believe it's coming with GoProduce, which I still can't wrap my head around how that will work with Onyx Thrive...but I'm sure we'll find out next week!

Was it you that bought those Blickle casters for your Summa? Thanks for the tip if it was, I ordered some in and will have the tech install them when we unbox the crate. Do you remember if they just bolt on using the Summa bolt?

Thanks!

 

[White Haus]

Some quick answers for you -

-Yes, you should absolutely get the kiss cutting tool for roll materials like vinyl, posters, heat transfers, banner materials, etc. It will allow you to cut much more precisely on smaller details on these materials compared to the cutout tools which use much larger blades.
-I would suggest using the EOT(electronic oscillating tool) for cutting cardboard. I know you mentioned that you aren't going with that tool, but I would strongly suggest getting it because you will also need it for cutting coroplast.
-The EOT is the best tool for cutting coroplast and will be required if you plan on cutting complex shapes or curves. You can use the heavy duty tool for straight line cuts, but the blade is much too large to turn while cutting that material and get a clean cut on detailed graphics or curves.
-I would suggest using bits made specifically for each of the materials you listed. Summa has a variety of bits available(32 different options) and down here in the US I would also contact Hartlauer(not sure if they have a Canadian location or not) Bits as they have hundreds of different bit options available.
-The remote pack does save some time setting your origin, material size, up/down position on the tools, etc so it may be a worthwhile investment. I would maybe try operating the equipment without the remote pack to start and add it later if you find you are spending a lot of time setting up those parameters.
-The 0 degree V-Cut tool isn't going to be the best option for shape cutting foam. The better tool for that application would be the POT-L(pneumatic oscillating tool long, which uses longer blades).

Best regards,

Phil Johnson
Airmark Corporation
(800)527-7778, ext 112
philj@airmark.com

Hey Phil, thanks for the info! Good to know about the kiss-cut tool. I originally thought it would be a little redundant to get it but that makes perfect sense the way you explained it.

Also good know about the EOT. I think I'm going to hold off on that and the creasing tool for now, until we can determine the best way to use the machine to make sure it's paying for itself.
As much as I'd love to play around with packaging, I'm not sure it's worth investing $5-6k just for that.

We'll see how coroplast goes with the heavy duty tool and/or router - I know we've gotten some coroplast routed before and as much as the edges weren't 100% clean, we might be able to go that route for the odd shape cut coroplast project. We mostly just do square cut so hopefully the heavy duty cutout will work well for that.

I will look into Summa's list of bits as well as Hartlauer. I definitely have a lot to learn when it comes to routing, bits, and all the terminology that comes with it. I've always been interested in it so it should be fun to learn. I also need to find out if there is a polishing bit that will work for edges of acrylic panels.

Thanks again.

 

[White Haus]

You will want the EOT and the kiss cutting tool. The EOT will cut material more intricate and the kiss cut is super fast at finishing vinyl(better than your 140)

Good to know, thanks! Especially since our S140T doesn't have opos-cam/barcode reader so I'm really excited to use that workflow on the F1612. The thought of loading a roll, scanning a barcode and walking away sounds almost too good to be true!

 

[kanini]

Sounds like you are getting the right tools at least to start with, I think you will be able to get a lot done with that setup. No, I didn't get casters for the Summa but maybe it is a good idea if the frame is sturdy enough to just be supported by wheels?
Thanks jerry369 for the tip about GoProduce, I'll maybe have a look at the free trial and see if it is worth getting.

 

[ProColorGraphics]

A lot of good responses here already. I agree, you will want the kiss-cut tool.

- For operating with your rip, I do the following with caldera: send one file to caldera with marks/print job, then send another to GoProduce with the marks/cut file. I have a lot of jobs where I need specific/random placement of my cut lines, so I like to add them manually. Makes it nice for repeat jobs too.
- For cut outs, I use the HD cut out tool 95% of the time.
- With the single edge tool, you will probably need to raise the blade height manually to get a good cut. If not, you will get jagged cuts and it cuts too deep into the material. I HATED this tool until I got this figured out.
- I have (3) creasing wheels now. They all work pretty good, but I would look into the new one coming out (I have it on order). It's designed to better crease cardboard without breaking the top paper layer. It's supposed to be here the first part of August.
- For router bits, look into X-edge or Bits and Bits. I have a lot of their bits and they works great!
- I have the EOT, it works great for more intricate stuff. I also found I have to use that on some super thick card stock to prevent tear out on the backside
- I recommend getting a second shop vac to have next to it for clean up after routing and to keep the belt vacuumed off.

Mine came with the wireless remote. I thought that was standard?

 

[White Haus]

A lot of good responses here already. I agree, you will want the kiss-cut tool.

- For operating with your rip, I do the following with caldera: send one file to caldera with marks/print job, then send another to GoProduce with the marks/cut file. I have a lot of jobs where I need specific/random placement of my cut lines, so I like to add them manually. Makes it nice for repeat jobs too.
- For cut outs, I use the HD cut out tool 95% of the time.
- With the single edge tool, you will probably need to raise the blade height manually to get a good cut. If not, you will get jagged cuts and it cuts too deep into the material. I HATED this tool until I got this figured out.
- I have (3) creasing wheels now. They all work pretty good, but I would look into the new one coming out (I have it on order). It's designed to better crease cardboard without breaking the top paper layer. It's supposed to be here the first part of August.
- For router bits, look into X-edge or Bits and Bits. I have a lot of their bits and they works great!
- I have the EOT, it works great for more intricate stuff. I also found I have to use that on some super thick card stock to prevent tear out on the backside
- I recommend getting a second shop vac to have next to it for clean up after routing and to keep the belt vacuumed off.

Mine came with the wireless remote. I thought that was standard?

Thanks for the info Matt, was hoping you would chime in!

When you say for cut outs you use the HD tool, does that include coroplast, 3/16" foamcore etc?

Is there a specific creasing wheel that you would recommend for just making cardboard boxes? (Sorry, don't even know what kind of carboard would be used...something like a vinyl box or slightly thinner)

Will look into those router bits, thanks. Do I understand correctly that you're limited to 3mm 1/4" bits or can you go up to 6mm if you use a 6mm collet? (I've got a learning to do when it comes to cnc terminology etc)

 

[ProColorGraphics]

Thanks for the info Matt, was hoping you would chime in!

When you say for cut outs you use the HD tool, does that include coroplast, 3/16" foamcore etc?

Is there a specific creasing wheel that you would recommend for just making cardboard boxes? (Sorry, don't even know what kind of carboard would be used...something like a vinyl box or slightly thinner)

Will look into those router bits, thanks. Do I understand correctly that you're limited to 3mm 1/4" bits or can you go up to 6mm if you use a 6mm collet? (I've got a learning to do when it comes to cnc terminology etc)

I use the HD cut out tool for most things: a lot of thru cuts in vinyl, coroplast, foam core, pvc, etc. It's its a heaving media, over 5mm, I will just set it up to do multiple cuts to get through it and/or slow it down.
I would honesty wait for the new creasing wheel. The old ones work, but have a tendency to tear the top layer of paper on the board. Which is why they have this new one coming out.
- Here is a link to their video:

I will send you some links/info for the router stuff.

 

[DaveD]

I'm getting very close to pulling the trigger on one of these. Does anyone have advise on stepping up to the HP router? Pros and cons if there are any? I want to be sure the ROI is there.

 

[PHILJOHNSON]

Hi Dave,

The spindle on the HF(high frequency) router is utmost balanced, which means it rotates with less play compared to the standard router and is more stable as a result. The results in smoother edge finishing compared to the standard router. The HF router also has more than double the RPM(up to 60,000 RPM versus 25,000 max RPM on the standard router). Bit changing is done pneumatically on the HF router also which makes bit changing quicker and requires no tools to swap out bits.

If you plan on routing a lot of rigid substrate then the HF would be a much better option. If you plan on cutting in lower volumes, and with mostly softer materials like PVC and foam boards, the standard router will be a good option and will be much less expensive than the HF.

We aren't too far from your location(our office is in North Seattle) and we keep these units in stock. We also used to own and operate Summa so we actually developed this technology and have over 10 years experience installing these machines all over the world. I would keep us in mind as an option if you are considering an F-Series and I would be happy to answer any questions that you might have about the equipment.

Please let me know if there is anything that I can do to help or if you have any other questions about the different router systems or any other tools you might be considering.

Best regards,

Phil Johnson
Airmark Corporation
(800)527-7778, ext 112
philj@airmark.com

 

[White Haus]

Hey Phil, do you have any customers using polishing bits or that have had good results finishing acrylic edges with the standard Kress router?

Got our unit up and running last week and I'm already really impressed with the router (and software that suggests feed rate/passes etc) but I want to do some testing to see how nice we can get the edges on clear acrylic. I have seen some polishing bits (diamond tip) that sell for thousands of dollars - I guess I'm just wondering if this is actually what's needed for finishing acrylic.

Thanks!

 

[ProColorGraphics]

I'm getting very close to pulling the trigger on one of these. Does anyone have advise on stepping up to the HP router? Pros and cons if there are any? I want to be sure the ROI is there.

I just have the KRESS, now AMB, router with mine. It has worked flawlessly for anything the machine can cut. I have also seriously toyed with the idea up upgrading to the HF. Its just hard to justify the $15k price tag they want for it. Even jobs with multiple bits is easy to do. I actually picked up a second spindle to have as a back and for quick bit changes. I am just hoping they can make some improvements to the router functions in GoProduce which would open up a lot of capabilities for the machine. I sent in ~10 suggestions and even got a response from Summa in Belgium. I was told they were all in the works. If these come about, I would look at the HF option again.

 

[DaveD]

I just have the KRESS, now AMB, router with mine. It has worked flawlessly for anything the machine can cut. I have also seriously toyed with the idea up upgrading to the HF. Its just hard to justify the $15k price tag they want for it. Even jobs with multiple bits is easy to do. I actually picked up a second spindle to have as a back and for quick bit changes. I am just hoping they can make some improvements to the router functions in GoProduce which would open up a lot of capabilities for the machine. I sent in ~10 suggestions and even got a response from Summa in Belgium. I was told they were all in the works. If these come about, I would look at the HF option again.

Forgive my ignorance. You are saying that you have bought third party routers (Kress AMB) and have it running on the Summa F Series. These routers interface with the control board I'm assuming to adjust speed and the like?

 

[White Haus]

Forgive my ignorance. You are saying that you have bought third party routers (Kress AMB) and have it running on the Summa F Series. These routers interface with the control board I'm assuming to adjust speed and the like?

The Kress/AMB router is the model that comes with the "standard" router option.

We just had ours installed last week and are very impressed with it so far. We've cut acrylic, 3mm acm and 1/2" PVC and it cuts very well, even using the same bit that came with the uni. Now I just need to experiment with different bits.

 

[ProColorGraphics]

Forgive my ignorance. You are saying that you have bought third party routers (Kress AMB) and have it running on the Summa F Series. These routers interface with the control board I'm assuming to adjust speed and the like?

You can find the same spindle out there to purchase. That brand, Kress/AMB, is not Summa exclusive. They actually just came out with a new one of this same model the Summa uses that has a software controlled speed control. It would be interesting to see if Summa would incorporate this.

 

[ProColorGraphics]

Hey Phil, do you have any customers using polishing bits or that have had good results finishing acrylic edges with the standard Kress router?

Got our unit up and running last week and I'm already really impressed with the router (and software that suggests feed rate/passes etc) but I want to do some testing to see how nice we can get the edges on clear acrylic. I have seen some polishing bits (diamond tip) that sell for thousands of dollars - I guess I'm just wondering if this is actually what's needed for finishing acrylic.

Thanks!

My guess is that the polishing bit needs a lot higher RPM to be effective. Hitting the edge with a torch using MAP gas seems to do a good job polishing it up.