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Terrible Print Quality - Need Help Troubleshooting

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x126

New Member
Thanks for any insight - I appreciate it.

First off I purchased a 72" Solvent Printer with a bulk ink system a few months ago now and still cannot get it to function correctly. ( I am purposely leaving out the brand name - because I would like input from anyone who knows about solvent printing/ers )

So far I have replaced...
1. All tubing
2. 12 Dampers ( Some of the new ones leaked ugh!! )
3. 4 pumps
4. Print heads have at least 30 minutes each of Sonic Cleaning while pumping cleaning fluid through them.

One big problem I seem to be having is I can't get the air out of the lines.

Any ideas on what I should do next?

Here is a sample of the output...
CameraAwesomePhoto(1).jpg CameraAwesomePhoto.jpg
 
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StopSignGraphics

New Member
You have to get the air out of the lines and you have to stop the leaks in the dampers before you can evaluate.

Air will cause the head to sputter, over spray and print erratically. Leaks will also cause similar issues. I can see quite a bit of overspray in your test images.

Depending on how the machine is set up, the pumps may possibly take care of the air. If the pumps create positive pressure on the system it might be an easy fix. Crack open line near the manifold, turn the pumps on and let it run to you get a steady flow of ink, tighten up. If the pumps create a negative pressure on the system, you'll have to apply whichever form of voodoo your manufacturer recommends.

Without knowing which type of printer, or at least the set up it's difficult to give you any more advice.

Good luck,
Chris
 
DravidDavid

DravidDavid

New Member
I'd suggest ditching the bulk ink system to start and going back to the regular one if it is not too much of a pain to remove. They can cause problems, but since I don't know what brand of printer it is, my advice could be pretty useless. Our Roland SJ-1000 had a bulk system and it liked to fail a lot.

Failing a normal ink system, dampers/lines need to be totally clear of any air before proper troubleshooting can begin.

Are you using factory inks? If not, perhaps try them too.
 
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player

New Member
Each printer is different, different heads etc. so it is not very smart to leave out the printer's brand and model number. Also the brand of the bulk ink system and ink might be helpful as well.
 
X

x126

New Member
Thank You! very much for the replies guys.

I'm going to replace one last element of the ink delivery system which is the "last chance - Pall filters" then concentrate on removing the air from the lines.

After buying all new dampers and some of them leaking from split plastic - I'm suspecting that it could be very possible the clear portion of them my also be leaking on others.

"DravidDavid" I really wish I could remove the bulk system - but that is all I have at the moment and I agree those cartridges could also be a source for air to get into the lines. I'll try to source original ink cartridges ASAP.

So now the missing factor.. the brand and model is a Graphtec JS501-18 - I hope after knowing that - you'll continue to help me work through these issues.

"StopSignGraphics" I am not sure if this is a neg or pos system, ( I'll guess positive) I'll have to research that and see if the manual has any Voodooo instructions (lol)

Now that you know the brand and model, Please feel free to add any additional comments.
 
SightLine

SightLine

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Another thing to try would be original OEM dampers and pumps. I have seen quite often (in our own experience at least 50% failure rate on pumps and dampers) cheap aftermarket pumps, dampers, even capping tops and head manifolds in some way fail to work or leak right out of the box. So - you get what you pay for in that respect. In 10 years with Mimaki printers, OEM pumps have lasted at least 5 years, the couple of times we tried cheap alternative pumps, not once single one of those lasted over a year, most under a month. If it's a negative pressure system (pumps after the capping station) then leaks do not mean you will see ink leaking, you will have air getting sucked in somewhere.
 
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x126

New Member
"SightLine" I totally agree with your suggestion, but unfortunately budgets and finding parts for this machine has proven to be difficult. I did however finally make a connection at Graphtec that is at least willing to give me some insight on the machine. Originally the call center did not even know what model I was talking about, I of course learned that Graphtec is out of the inkjet market after buying this machine. :banghead:
 
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player

New Member
Do you know what printheads it uses? If it is like most printers they will be Epson, and the consumable parts are interchangeable.
 
X

x126

New Member
Couple of things....

Attempting to remove the air out of the lines I am noticing that the air bubbles are traveling (what seems to be backwards ) down the ink line into the ink cartridges.

Which brings up a question ( It might be a dumb one so Don't laugh - lol) I would think the dampers should be full of ink - but can someone confirm if they should remain full, half full or whatever?

Again, Thanks for your input
 
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StopSignGraphics

New Member
This is over simplified but positive pressure ink systems push ink through the system and negative ink systems pull ink. Negative ink systems usually depend on gravity to feed ink to the head...again this really over simplified.

I'm not familiar with your printer but it's probably pulling ink, air traveling back towards the ink tanks is probably not a good thing...it's hard to say just depends on how your printer is plumbed.

I have no idea what the ink cost for that machine but you might want to see if you can get your hands on some sort of flushing solvent to run through the print heads while you are diagnosing. It might save you some money over wasting the ink. But if the ink is cheap enough maybe not.

I agree with whoever posted removing the bulk system for the time being , you've got too many things going on, you might have head problems, damper problems, problems with the bulk system or several other issue. It's just lots of variables.


Good luck,
Chris
 
P

player

New Member
On Roland printers the dampers sits on top of the print heads. There are plastic spouts (called carburetors) that come up from the head. This is what the damper goes onto to carry the ink into the head (through the carburetor). These are easily cracked or broken, and when they are, the ink lines are no longer sealed, and air will be seen in the ink lines.

I am not sure if you have this type of setup, but air in the system might mean the seal is broken somewhere.
 
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x126

New Member
StopSignGraphics... Great insight, a little about this system - the pumps are pushing ink towards the print heads, the ink then either goes into the heads or is diverted into the damper. Ive attached an image that I have diagrammed to explain the ink flow for this system.
system-ink-flow-diagram-just-before-print-heads-n-dampers.jpg

As far as the ink, as per another thread here on signs101 - I purchased 1 gallon of Cellosolve, 1 gallon of Carbitol and 1 gallon of acetone and have created my own "cleaning solution" but for now as an alternative to ink, I have mixed the Cellosolve (15%) and Carbitol (65%) with some ink (20%) just for color so I can at least see the basic result of the output.

At this point I am still trying to remove the air from the lines while trying to find the location of where the air is being introduced into the lines. I am beginning to suspect a possible location is at the needle where the bulk ink cartridges are inserted and/or from the NEW dampers. I also have a request into Graphtec for OEM ink cartridges since I do not have any.

I'll post again when I can confirm.

"Mike Paul" This system does not have o rings at the dampers - see image...
Dampers.jpg
 
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player

New Member
It is too bad you did not put the model of your printer in the title. There must be a few here who owned them and could give you the benefit of their experience. Perhaps a new thread to see?
 
P

player

New Member
Not much response...

Did you remove the cleat things? If they are factory they should be there, whatever they are.

Also are your dampers OEM or cheap knock-offs? My Roland tech tells me the cheap ones don't have proper filtering and can let debris into the heads which is a bad thing...

How much help is Graphtec? Surely there must be someone who used to work on them you could talk to?
 
X

x126

New Member
"Player" After working my way through a few different offices and people - I finally did make contact with someone there. I am communicating with them as well, but I'm one of those types who can't stay Idle and wait - therefor I figured plugging into the wealth of knowledge here is a good thing. I'll admit - I am looking forward to resolving my issues so that I may be able to lend a hand to someone here in the near future.

Prior to actually making contact with Graphtec, I purchased a few items that were not OEM from http://www.benjercorp.com/dampers/ and the dampers were one of those things. AND YES! I agree they are cheap demonstrated by the fact that 4 of the 12 leaked, also they are dampers for a HP9000 Seiko 64S & OCE CS606 that was the closest match I could find. As a matter of fact - the previous owner also used one of these same dampers - thats how I figured out which alternative to use.

Cleat things????? Can you clarify
 
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player

New Member
In one of your other threads you asked about some things in the lines that were clogged and if you could eliminate them.
 
SightLine

SightLine

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I'm really confused by the photos. What purpose can the dampers serve if the ink goes through a 6 way fully able to bypass them? In all printers I have seen the ink must first go through the dampers then into the heads. It appears as though there is a 6 way fitting which allows the ink to really just bypass the dampers.

I don't have nor do I have experience with the type machine you have but on most other ones I have seen the ink flow is this-

cartridges (or bulk tanks) > dampers > printheads > capping station > pump(s) > waste tank

sometimes there might be a filter somewhere before the heads and/or splitters dividing the ink channel to multiple head channels of the same color. I'm sure there are other designs as well which probably have the pumps in-line (positive pressure pushing ink to the heads versus negative pressure setup after the heads pulling ink) before the heads.
 
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