The open discussion of pricing

[Joe Diaz]

I rarely answer pricing questions anyway. I think the best way to handle your own pricing structure is to fully understand your own expenses, overhead, how much others value your work, etc. etc... I think all of those are more important than finding out what other people in different parts of the world are charging. Although I don't think knowing that is a bad thing.

Like others have said. There really isn't a one shoe fits all pricing structure. We are all different, have different expenses and overhead, use different material, have different equipment, offer different services, even have different quality of work, so naturally our prices should all be different. So I really don't think answering pricing questions would be helpful anyway. I think what is more helpful is to force others to figure this out on their own. By not giving them shortcuts, they will learn a lot about their own business and the value of what they have to offer. And by doing so they will gain confidence in their prices.

However If I did, I wouldn't be worried so much about potential customers seeing my prices online, They will find that out when stopping in anyway, although I would prefer they stop in and get that information then read it on a forum. I like talking to my customers about what we have to offer.

 

[anotherdog]

Isn't any pricing formula now redundant?

With threads running about there being far too many sign shops in a given area the question moves to what a customer is prepared to pay. With many purchases now, I will consult the google beast to find out what the price should be.

In fact I just did it today with aluminum sign blanks to check my supplier was still a fair price. I am therefore not surprised when the price of signage is driven down by all these garage and basement based startups who lack the heavy overhead of an established business.

Yes you have a pricing formula, but if you have local competition...

To return to the thread at hand (sorry), surely the discussion of pricing will educate the garage jockeys to increase pricing to the benefit of all?

 

[artsnletters]

Let me tell you a true tale that illustrates why I believe price discussions are a good thing.

Back in the mid 1980's, we were running three Gerber IV-Bs and operating as a wholesale letter service. We had captured about 85% to 90% of the local market and were doing very well. In the door one morning walked an old sign painter named Gil.

Gil was pretty well known for his ability to put up a 4 x 8 from scratch and paint it in just under a day's time. His rate was $100 for this including the materials ... so he cleared about $60 for a day's work. He always thought this was just fine since it made him enough to pay for his motel room, dinner and a few drinks that evening.

That morning, however, Gil had a problem. A regular customer had asked him to letter two doors of a semi tractor. The job called for the font Murray Hill Bold and some graphics that were beyond Gil's abilities to do in paint. So he came to me for a quote.

The quote came out to $75.00 for the cut vinyl. Gil's eyes got wide and he said, "Hell, that's about what I figured to sell the job for. What do you think I should quote him?"

I replied, "Quote him the materials doubled plus your time to do the job including your time here and with him at your shop rate."

"My what?, he asked. "What's a shop rate?"

I explained what a shop rate was and gave a range that most area shops were charging of $30.00 to $35.00. He decided that $30.00 was his preference. Next we figured out the estimated time he would have in the job to complete it at four hours including his sales time and time coming in to order and pickup from me.

His quote worked out to:

$75.00 materials x 2 = $150.00
4 hours @ $30.00 = $120.00

Total for the job = $270.00

Old Gil was in shock. He didn't see how the job was worth that. I suggested to him that he put the job at risk by quoting the $270.00 and he reluctantly agreed to do so.

The next morning, Gil was back in disbelief. The customer has accepted the quote and had cut him a check for the whole $270.00 on the spot. He ordered, picked up and completed the job.

Gil went on to become a regular customer. About six months after our first meeting, he gifted me with a beautiful framed apple crate label and thanked me for the advice and information I had supplied to him. In the years that followed, Gil prospered. He rented a place for his shop, hired employees, and even bought a home.

I happen to believe that most people who under price their work do so because they don't know any better. That if you demonstrate to them they can and should be getting better paid for their work, they will choose to follow that path. It's simply in their best interests.

thats an awesome illustration on how it should work....
Thanks for that Fred!
Tim

 

[mark in tx]

I spoke with the owner of another shop in town about how much he charges for a 4'x8' MDO sign, he told me $250.00.
I said, "If I can get $300.00 for the same thing, why can't you?"

Just food for thought, some of the best discussions on this board come from a simple question, a simple question that will be asked over and over again.

 

[Gino]

Entries in the premium forums do not show up in Google searches.

As to the original point ... consider

Only accepted members of Signs 101 can see the open forums pricing forum. Try logging out and see if you can find it.

At any given time less than 10% of our "active members" are premium subscribers. Therefore, 90% are not. Part of the reason for pricing discussions is to demonstrate to all members, especially those in the early stages of their careers, what goes into proper pricing. So the question becomes, do you want to exclude 90% from possibly picking up that bit of information that might make them a better member of your business community?

Fred.... I know we talked about this just the other day.

Today, I did as you suggested and logged off and couldn't find this stuff as you explained. Has it been like this ever since the beginning or is this something I just plain never understood or knew about.... or something you've implemented in recent months or more ??

I really like this feature and now, have a totally different outlook on much more.

​

 

[Fred Weiss]

Fred.... I know we talked about this just the other day.

Today, I did as you suggested and logged off and couldn't find this stuff as you explained. Has it been like this ever since the beginning or is this something I just plain never understood or knew about.... or something you've implemented in recent months or more ??

I really like this feature and now, have a totally different outlook on much more.

​

I made the change the last time this came up and announced it at the time. Must have been about six months ago. It was just one of those things that dawned on me that it could be modified to do that. The same treatment was given to:

• Logo Design
• Designs & Layouts
• Portfolio Board
• Business Management

 

[signage]

Thank You Fred for doing this!

 

[Fred Weiss]

Thank You Fred for doing this!

And thank you Brian for the numerous things you do to make this a better board.

 

[skyhigh]

Let me tell you a true tale that illustrates why I believe price discussions are a good thing.

Back in the mid 1980's, we were running three Gerber IV-Bs and operating as a wholesale letter service. We had captured about 85% to 90% of the local market and were doing very well. In the door one morning walked an old sign painter named Gil.

Gil was pretty well known for his ability to put up a 4 x 8 from scratch and paint it in just under a day's time. His rate was $100 for this including the materials ... so he cleared about $60 for a day's work. He always thought this was just fine since it made him enough to pay for his motel room, dinner and a few drinks that evening.

That morning, however, Gil had a problem. A regular customer had asked him to letter two doors of a semi tractor. The job called for the font Murray Hill Bold and some graphics that were beyond Gil's abilities to do in paint. So he came to me for a quote.

The quote came out to $75.00 for the cut vinyl. Gil's eyes got wide and he said, "Hell, that's about what I figured to sell the job for. What do you think I should quote him?"

I replied, "Quote him the materials doubled plus your time to do the job including your time here and with him at your shop rate."

"My what?, he asked. "What's a shop rate?"

I explained what a shop rate was and gave a range that most area shops were charging of $30.00 to $35.00. He decided that $30.00 was his preference. Next we figured out the estimated time he would have in the job to complete it at four hours including his sales time and time coming in to order and pickup from me.

His quote worked out to:

$75.00 materials x 2 = $150.00
4 hours @ $30.00 = $120.00

Total for the job = $270.00

Old Gil was in shock. He didn't see how the job was worth that. I suggested to him that he put the job at risk by quoting the $270.00 and he reluctantly agreed to do so.

The next morning, Gil was back in disbelief. The customer has accepted the quote and had cut him a check for the whole $270.00 on the spot. He ordered, picked up and completed the job.

Gil went on to become a regular customer. About six months after our first meeting, he gifted me with a beautiful framed apple crate label and thanked me for the advice and information I had supplied to him. In the years that followed, Gil prospered. He rented a place for his shop, hired employees, and even bought a home.

I happen to believe that most people who under price their work do so because they don't know any better. That if you demonstrate to them they can and should be getting better paid for their work, they will choose to follow that path. It's simply in their best interests.

I just ran into this thread........and I'm not going to get into any lenghty discussions, but I do have one question for you Fred.

Did your pricing discussion with your buddy Gil, take place in front of the guy wanteing his semi doors lettered? (didn't think so)

Great story, but its not the same thing as whats happening here. Wow Fred, did you just compare a private conversation between 2 signmen, in the sanctuary of your shop, with having that same conversation on the frikkin WORLD WIDE WEB??????


ya'll have a great day.

 

[iSign]

Great story, but its not the same thing as whats happening here. Wow Fred, did you just compare a private conversation between 2 signmen, in the sanctuary of your shop, with having that same conversation on the frikkin WORLD WIDE WEB??????

this thread has become, in large part, about how the pricing discussions have been removed from view of the non members... so how do you get this perception that the discussion is on the frikkin WORLD WIDE WEB??????

The whole reason that it IS on the web (the not so wide WEB), is to educate others to charge properly... for signmen to educate one another... I think that is the direction of this conversation, and therefore, exactly like Fred's story...

 

[skyhigh]

this thread has become, in large part, about how the pricing discussions have been removed from view of the non members... so how do you get this perception that the discussion is on the frikkin WORLD WIDE WEB??????
...

When did Fred put that sticky on the new member "rules & guidelines"? (no pricing talk in the open forum)

Pricing talks happen daily in the open forum. The thread may not be in the "Pricing" forum (premium), but rather in the "Gereral Chit Chat"....nonetherless which is on the F'WWW.

Enlighten me Doug? As Fred mentioned, only 10% of the members are premium. So 90% are still asking "What Would You Charge" in the open forum. And whats really funny, is when I see the Premium Subscribers answering their questions. Some just don't get it.

 

[signage]

Skyhigh read Gino post in this thread and you will see you are incorrect! Fred has made all the pricing forums for member viewing only! You should rad all not just part of these threads. Have a nice day.

Or better yet test it yourself!

 

[skyhigh]

Skyhigh read Gino post in this thread and you will see you are incorrect! Fred has made all the pricing forums for member viewing only! You should rad all not just part of these threads. Have a nice day.

Or better yet test it yourself!

Well hold on a minute, while I remove my foot from my mouth.

Now that I read the entire thread, I see I wasn't the only member who didn't realize the change Fred had made.

Good for you Fred.




And Brian.....you have a great day also.

 

[Tim Aucoin]

sure let's talk money....
premium membership is $50. how serious are you about your business if your not willing to invest $50 a year for the premiere 24/7 resource in your industry? and do you really want to take financial advice from those who couldn't muster up $50 themselves?

+1 Well said GG! This forum has actually made me thousands, and thousands of dollars since I joined, and I don't actually pay the $50... my customers do... they just don't know it!!

And Fred... great job bye the way with the change you made! I just found out about it in this thread! A lot of good points coming up here!