Thermal Prints and Lamination - Help?

[njsigns]

I have a Roland PC-12 and have a job that would be ideal to finally get some use out of it. The PC-12 is a thermal print and cut system - for those not in the know.

I have a question regarding the lamination of thermal prints with liquid laminate. I plan on using Clear Shield to laminate. My question is do I cut and weed the print before applying laminate? I can envision the liquid laminate going beyond the edges of the cut print and causing problems.

Do I print, laminate, then back in the machine to cut? This method frightens me - seriously, as I've never done it before and I can just imagine the print not being cut right! Not sure how well the PC-12 works with registration marks. At the cost per sq. ft. printing with this machine, I can't afford to screw it up too many times.

If I were using sheet laminate I would print, laminate, then cut, but the liquid laminate has me stumped. The only reason I am using Clear Shield is because I have it, and that's only because I was "sold" on the liquid for thermal prints - not sure if it's the best method, but what it's I have on hand.

I don't do enough print and cut to justify buying roll laminate, which is probably a better choice. These prints are expensive and are limited in size without overlapping so I end up doing layered vinyl more often than not.

The final product will be handed off to the customer for a self install (3 hours away), so how about application tape? How does application tape "react" to the liquid laminate?

I would do all layered vinyl, but with 8 colors, I feel this is my best bet.

Welcoming any advice/help with this one...

Thanks
Gene

 

[iSign]

well... nothing lasts forever, but thermal does last far better then unlaminated inkjet output. I've been thermal printing almost every day for 7 years and never laminated anything. I've had no complaints either. It's true that it will fade faster then layered vinyl, so you tell your client it is more durable in one sense... less corners to peel up compared to the edges of 8 layers... & less expensive in your labor... but it may see some fading after 4 or 5 years.

Besides that, I think you should be able to put it back in to cut after the liquid laminate (which I think you should charge extra for)... or tell the client it can be protected with a liquid laminate after installation, (how that would work, I'm not sure... but hell... I'd expect him to be happy with a 4-5 year life expectancy)

 

[Pro Image]

Print it, Cut it, before you weed it spray the lam. on let dry and then clean and cover the prints..................Easy as CAKE...................

Dont be afraid, Don't be very afraid..........Oh wait thast the other way around

"Be afraid Be very afraid" lol.......................

 

[njsigns]

Thanks Doug,

If I remember correctly you're printing using a Gerber Edge? I've seen the praises of Gerber, and have often wondered what the benefit/ and or quality of the prints had over that of the PC-12? I've seen the PC-12 slammed and I'm really not sure why everyone seems to hate it? Maybe that's a different discussion all together...

The reason for laminating (in my mind) is I've used Alps thermal printers for years now, without lamination the prints seem to get "scratched" quite easily and I feared the same results from the PC-12, or any thermal printer without lamination for that matter. I've never printed to vinyl with the Alps, which may yield different results. I've been using laser labels and cold lamination sheets - quite successfully, have seen stuff I made years ago still looking like new. Maybe I've given too much credit to the laminate?

As far as the longevity of the prints and fading, the customer will be applying these to a "dock box" or a "lock box" (not quite sure what they said, not sure if they know either, lol) which is inside of their boat. It looks like it will have minimal exposure to the sun based on photos they have shown me. My main concern was the ink getting "scratched off" in what seems to be a relatively high traffic area on the boat.

My final concern was the application tape "taking ink with it" on the installation. Is this an unrealistic fear? I will be printing to FDC white vinyl.

They already have plans of buying another boat next year so maybe 4-5 years is overkill, if they intend on selling this boat when they get a new one. They aren't afraid to spend money, I just want to give them the best product I can.

Thanks for the quick response!

Gene

 

[njsigns]

Print it, Cut it, before you weed it spray the lam. on let dry and then clean and cover the prints..

Thanks Dustin,

Before I weed, spray the laminate - I thought about this method too, I wasn't sure if the liquid laminate would make a "shell" going into the cut areas and "bond it back together" into a solid surface. Maybe I'm just being a knucklehead thinking about too many "what if" factors.

Clean and cover the prints - don't mean to sound stupid, but clean with....? I am also thinking the lowest tack tape I have would be the best solution for transferring the graphics to the substrate.

Thanks guys!
:U Rock:
Gene

 

[Pro Image]

Clean and cover the prints - don't mean to sound stupid, but clean with....?

Thanks guys!
:U Rock:
Gene

Sorry Gene when I say clean and cover I mean I weed it and then cover it:Oops: ........Any good transfer tape will do if you let the lam. cure it will not come off......................Hope I help ya out............

 

[JMDigital]

Yup.. Print - Cut - Laminate - Weed . I did that with my CJ-500 Worked great.. and its still on a car 7 months later..

 

[iSign]

I've seen the praises of Gerber, and have often wondered what the benefit/ and or quality of the prints had over that of the PC-12? I've seen the PC-12 slammed and I'm really not sure why everyone seems to hate it?

2 reasons the Roland thermal machines have drawn a lot of bad press is the banding from 1/4" foils compared to 11.8" widths on the edge, & the extremely high square foot costs of the foils. Other then that, some talented people have donw well with at least one of Rolands thermal machines, so if you got one, I think you should get decent life expectancy from unlaminated prints.

 

[Mike Paul]

I have a Roland PC-12 and have a job that would be ideal to finally get some use out of it. The PC-12 is a thermal print and cut system - for those not in the know.

I have a question regarding the lamination of thermal prints with liquid laminate. I plan on using Clear Shield to laminate. My question is do I cut and weed the print before applying laminate? I can envision the liquid laminate going beyond the edges of the cut print and causing problems.

Do I print, laminate, then back in the machine to cut? This method frightens me - seriously, as I've never done it before and I can just imagine the print not being cut right! Not sure how well the PC-12 works with registration marks. At the cost per sq. ft. printing with this machine, I can't afford to screw it up too many times.

If I were using sheet laminate I would print, laminate, then cut, but the liquid laminate has me stumped. The only reason I am using Clear Shield is because I have it, and that's only because I was "sold" on the liquid for thermal prints - not sure if it's the best method, but what it's I have on hand.

I don't do enough print and cut to justify buying roll laminate, which is probably a better choice. These prints are expensive and are limited in size without overlapping so I end up doing layered vinyl more often than not.

The final product will be handed off to the customer for a self install (3 hours away), so how about application tape? How does application tape "react" to the liquid laminate?

I would do all layered vinyl, but with 8 colors, I feel this is my best bet.

Welcoming any advice/help with this one...

Thanks
Gene

I clear almost all my (Edge Printed) truck jobs with Frog Juice. I usually apply it after cutting and I haven't encountered a problem even back to my old PC60 days.
90% of the time I apply it with a 3in. foam brush to avoid inhaling the overspray from the spray cans.
I thin a quart apx. 20%, add a capful of fisheye preventer and it's good to go. Apply it fast, thin & even and it flows out beautifully. For smaller stuff I'll use the spray can.

I use Conform standard tack application tape and I can't think of any job that the clearcoat pulled off a print. Maybe once when the decal was applied outside and the temperature was around 20-30 degrees.

How soon will the customer be installing these after he receives them?
If he plans on storing these and using them as needed I would suggest a film laminate. Application tape tends to get more aggressive the longer it sits on the prints.

.

 

[WB]

I always Print Laminate then Cut, but most of the time with a cold laminate. I do have a liquid laminator but have never needed to liquid and something that small. Only problem I would see with doing the print-cut-laminate, is when you weed your print after laminating over you cut line, the laminate might want to come up with the extra vinyl being weeded, or you might get an edge that would be kind of rough. But like I said I've never done it with Liquid. I don't see why you wouldn't want to cut after it's laminated making sure that both the print and the laminate were cut properly.

 

[Gino]

From the PC-5000 to the PC-60, we’ve always printed, cut and let sit for a few hours or over night. Even thermal resin needs to cure a bit. If it was a contoured cut, we lightly sprayed the area, then went back and got a little heavier with a few more passes. The only reason for this was if any banding appeared or we just wanted a little more ‘Oomph'. The clearcoat would always remove the banding to the naked eye. If we were applying a square or rectangular piece, we would roller it on. However, we cut it to about 40% and 60% to prevent spidering [looks like cotton candy in the air]. As far as fish eye remover, with thermal prints, they have to be so clean for the resin to go down, that that was a step we never needed. Also, I never heard of putting in a capful of fish eye remover for only a quart, that sounds like a huge waste of it. We never stored fish eye or any other additives in any paints or clears. We only used the amount that is needed as we go. That stuff doesn’t sit well in a can on a shelf for long periods of time according to what brand you’re using. Last thing, ‘Clear Shield’ if that’s the water-based version, I wouldn’t use it. It tends to give a milky appearance unless sprayed properly. I would only use solvent based clears on a thermal. You can’t soak it on and play with it, but you can build it up the way it’s meant to go on.

 

[Mike Paul]

From the PC-5000 to the PC-60, we’ve always printed, cut and let sit for a few hours or over night. Even thermal resin needs to cure a bit. If it was a contoured cut, we lightly sprayed the area, then went back and got a little heavier with a few more passes. The only reason for this was if any banding appeared or we just wanted a little more ‘Oomph'. The clearcoat would always remove the banding to the naked eye. If we were applying a square or rectangular piece, we would roller it on. However, we cut it to about 40% and 60% to prevent spidering [looks like cotton candy in the air]. As far as fish eye remover, with thermal prints, they have to be so clean for the resin to go down, that that was a step we never needed. Also, I never heard of putting in a capful of fish eye remover for only a quart, that sounds like a huge waste of it. We never stored fish eye or any other additives in any paints or clears. We only used the amount that is needed as we go. That stuff doesn’t sit well in a can on a shelf for long periods of time according to what brand you’re using. Last thing, ‘Clear Shield’ if that’s the water-based version, I wouldn’t use it. It tends to give a milky appearance unless sprayed properly. I would only use solvent based clears on a thermal. You can’t soak it on and play with it, but you can build it up the way it’s meant to go on.

PPG recommends 1-2 capfuls or 1/2 to 1 oz. per quart of clear right on the label. 1 capful is only about a tablespoon.

.

 

[Jackpine]

Your pc 12 should get 3 to 5 years outdoors with NO laminate. Print/cut/spray ( solvent clears only) let it tack abit and weed. This will give you a good product. I used a pc 600 for 3 1/2 years and made money. I also clear film laminate for protection such as on autos.

 

[Gino]

Understanding marketing vs. actual use of a product comes into play here on this one.

Mike Paul, you’re probably correct that an Automotive Paint Company will tell you to dump a lot of ‘Fish Eye Remover’ into a quart of clear or paint. The main difference is… the auto world compared to the sign world. Fisheye Killer is nothing more than adding more silicone to your paint or clear so that it just rides over top of any contamination already on your surface if you haven’t first cleaned it properly. The more you dump in the more money ‘ they’ make. You’re still just wasting it. Years ago [way BC] when we would be lettering on-site in an automotive shop or some crash shop, these guys would load their guns up with so much of this to prevent fish eye, that it would contaminate everything else in the whole area [even behind closed doors], including what we were working on at the same time. The bottle I have reads when adding to large amounts… one [1] fluid ounce to five [5] gallons of paint. Also, any equipment you’re using [canisters, guns, lines, paint, etc.] is completely contaminated for future use and will also be spraying out fish eye killer for quite some time. Once you’ve applied fish eye to your paint, that last coat now will fish eye terribly [for any future coats or hand lettering], because of the silicone you added and especially at the amounts they’re suggesting. That’s also why we didn’t mix more than we needed, because you can’t hand letter over that stuff anymore. These days with all of the vinyl use, the actual use of some of these chemicals isn’t as critical, but should still be understood. Anyway, at those ratios you indicated, you’ll be going through it rather quickly. I still have a 1-oz. bottle that I bought almost ten years ago and it’s still half full. One or two drops in our turps can and we could letter an entire truck.

 

[Techman]

Personally, i never heard of using fish eye juice for wet laminating.. Is it really needed?

 

[Gino]

Actually, in my experience… No. After eleven years in digital printing, we’ve never used it in clearing any digital prints. In my first post I said it was an unnecessary step, but if you wanted to use it, only a small amount would be needed, if at all.