to laminate or not to laminate

[rushworks graphics]

this was a full color print and i thought it best to laminate. it wa s a standard 18 x 24 and i know i'll get more business in the future if the prints look good, which they do and if they last, which i hope they do! she wanted coro, thats what she asked for.
i'd be interested to know how long unlaminated signs would last out doors in all weathers and direct sunlight as it seems theirs a divide on here about laminating and not laminating. if you do not laminate, how long does a standard say, real estate sign last out doors, if you think say it would be out side for several months at a time.

 

[Baz]

Lot of people want stuff cheap. Doesn't mean I give it to em cheap!!!

That doesn't cut it here Flame. My understanding is this is for a real estate agent? There is no loyalty with these people (not here anyways) ... We are not talking about their car graphics or other specialty items that you would want to protect and make a good job. But their lawns signs .. They want quantity and cheap prices. Theses things get no respect .. whether they are traditionaly screen printed or digital ... My opinion is they will still scratch the same and last the same. Why make a cheap product more expensive to produce.

 

[ProWraps]

we laminate everything. you can get lam for .15 sq/ft. easier install, and less hastles. flame is right.

 

[GAC05]

I guess it depends on the shop.
Would any of you coro laminators laminate a digital banner?
If not, why not?
I run coro through my hand cranked laminator to mount the prints - lamination does not really help there.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Flame]

That doesn't cut it here Flame. My understanding is this is for a real estate agent? There is no loyalty with these people (not here anyways) ... We are not talking about their car graphics or other specialty items that you would want to protect and make a good job. But their lawns signs .. They want quantity and cheap prices. Theses things get no respect .. whether they are traditionaly screen printed or digital ... My opinion is they will still scratch the same and last the same. Why make a cheap product more expensive to produce.

First off if $0.40 a sign is going to make or break you, you're getting GOUGGGED on your coro signs.

And secondly, why are you marketing to cheap, pita customers with no loyalty? Why even bother?

 

[Baz]

First off if $0.40 a sign is going to make or break you, you're getting GOUGGGED on your coro signs.

And secondly, why are you marketing to cheap, pita customers with no loyalty? Why even bother?

For your first statement: I pay $0.32 per sq ft for a good quality calendered lam. I dont think my suppliers have anything cheaper and on jobs where i do laminate i would not want to put on a cheap lam either. So that ends up being $0.96 on a 18"x24". plus your waste. On one or two signs the cost is insignificant but if your order is for 20-30 .. the unnecessary cost and time adds up.

For your second statement: Who says i market to cheap PIA customers? My main business is with construction companies, property management firms and sub trades. So i do get my fair share of calls from agents as well. I know agents, i know what they want, they want it fast and cheap. We have shops here with flatbeds that are selling these things next to nothing. I could just refuse those jobs or produce them in a way that matches the competitions price and still make money, keep the the customer and his mouth and whatever else they end up ordering. Remember .. we are talking about lawn signs here.

Yes with lam it is easyer to install on the coro. But if you have a laminator you just run your print through it onto the coro. No need for laminate. Congrats to those who do use laminate on real estate coro signs. I'm not knocking your desire to put out a good quality product. I just find it to be a waste on this type of sign.

 

[ProWraps]

if your paying .32 for "good quality CALENDARED lam", your getting middled. find a new supplier.

this business is as much dealing with customers that work you, as it is working your suppliers to benefit you.

having a retail background has saved me in the sense that i "work" my suppliers like i did when i owned my retail store. it goes both ways.

hell i can crack a fellers catalog and get retail prices on .15 sq/ft for "good quality calendared lam" before i negotiate with them. if you cant even do that, your doomed.

as far as the battle on coro signs, understand what is going on here. you are fighting a battle of silk screen vs. digital. silk screen doesnt need a lam. its apples to oranges. ego sol inks are worthless without a lam. on many levels. install, scuff resistance, among others.

if your even trying to compete with that level, the lam is the least of your worries.

then again WTH do i know.

 

[Flame]

For your first statement: I pay $0.32 per sq ft for a good quality calendered lam. I dont think my suppliers have anything cheaper and on jobs where i do laminate i would not want to put on a cheap lam either. So that ends up being $0.96 on a 18"x24". plus your waste. On one or two signs the cost is insignificant but if your order is for 20-30 .. the unnecessary cost and time adds up.

For your second statement: Who says i market to cheap PIA customers? My main business is with construction companies, property management firms and sub trades. So i do get my fair share of calls from agents as well. I know agents, i know what they want, they want it fast and cheap. We have shops here with flatbeds that are selling these things next to nothing. I could just refuse those jobs or produce them in a way that matches the competitions price and still make money, keep the the customer and his mouth and whatever else they end up ordering. Remember .. we are talking about lawn signs here.

Yes with lam it is easyer to install on the coro. But if you have a laminator you just run your print through it onto the coro. No need for laminate. Congrats to those who do use laminate on real estate coro signs. I'm not knocking your desire to put out a good quality product. I just find it to be a waste on this type of sign.

Well atleast we both agree they're bottom of the barrel jobs. But I still charge $40+ for a single sided coro, and perfectly fine with cranking out only a few here and there.

But... as far as price, you can do much better on lam but I just realized this isn't premium section but would be glad to offer some suggestions on good lam for less dinero.

 

[signswi]

Offer both, be honest with the client on the cost and lifespan differences, and have them decide. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Gino]

Baz……

I’m behind ya 110%.

Both sides of the fence here are correct. There is no right or wrong way to do this. It’s that simple… its a personal preference call. For those that want to laminate a Cor-X sign… go ahead, no one is stopping you. You’re also correct that you don’t have much invested money-wise and maybe time-wise, too. However, if a guy comes in and asks me for 18” x 24” Cor-X signs, I don’t even bother asking if he’s a cheap customer…. I already know it. So, I give him cheap. When we did most of this with eco-sol inks, we printed and mounted within about an hour or two… based upon the coverage. Therefore, we could turn signs around much faster than any of you that claim to wait 24 hours to laminate following proper procedures….. Another helpful item is…. we have very little, to no trouble laying down a piece of calendared or cast vinyl on Cor-X , let alone other substrates. Years of practice helps there.

Now that we have the flatbed, we’re turning these out left and right on PVC, Cor-X and other flimsy substrates with absolutely no waiting time. So, like Baz said…. these other guys can’t compete any longer and believe it or not…. I’m not even lowballing.

One other major factor in the inkjet realm of this whole situation is something else…. how many jobs are going through your shop that you have the extra time to be adding so many unnecessary steps ?? At any given time, we have many jobs going on and adding steps only adds cost to your bottom line. Today we have 400 Cor-X, 30 Cor-X , 2 banners, 1 cop cruiser, die cut vinyl for 75 interior signs 1-sided and 45 2-sided, over 500 printed RTG decals, some reflective printed emblems and finishing up a 3’ x 10’ electric cabinet…. if the parts get here today. So, no need to do that for cheap customers…. or cheap signs. When the occasion is needed for lam… we do it, but overseeing what I do… it’s my call where and when we: lam, clear coat, third coat of paint, pay attention to whatever details are relevant to getting a job finished and finished properly.

I believe it’s safe to say…. to each their own when it comes to laminating cheap signs… with the emphasis on CHEAP. Anyone that wants to beat themselves up over 32¢ or 15¢ materials….. fine. It’s the big jobs where it pays to be more concerned with your methods.


For jesse.... that's the whole point. For the most part, Cor-X isn't going to hold up any longer with lam on it or not. Most Cor-X only lasts about 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 years at best, with occasionally some lasting more, but that's rare. However, it wasn't any lam that made it last longer. It was probably the location or amount of climate that saw the sign that makes the difference. If one thinks laminate is going to make Cor-X last longer, then isn't the actual printed vinyl already acting that part of the equation ??

 

[B Snyder]

hence the question i posted, want to make sure i'm giving the customer a good quality sign so they come back and recommend us to others!

If you want to make sure you're giving your customer a good quality coroplast sign then laminate it. It'll look better, last longer, application of the print will be easier, and when your customer sticks two signs face-to-face in their 150 degree trunk the ink won't stick together.

i'd be interested to know how long unlaminated signs would last out doors in all weathers and direct sunlight as it seems theirs a divide on here about laminating and not laminating. if you do not laminate, how long does a standard say, real estate sign last out doors, if you think say it would be out side for several months at a time.

The answer will depend on the climate and geographical location. If you want to know how long your sign will last in North Carolina don't assume you're getting good advice from someone in Nova Scotia or Arizona. You need to do your own testing.

 

[rushworks graphics]

thanks b snyder.......your right on geographical location of course, i just wounder what "average" time a corro sign would last out doors but as you say, it depends on location so maybe not the best question!

 

[Tim Aucoin]

In the 2.5 years we've been mounting signs on cor-x, we have yet to laminate one. Generally, our signs are going outside for 6 months to 1 year. Conditions in this part of the world vary from 90F to -20F, rain, snow, hail, etc... No complaints yet... Calgary Stampede was last week. We did 40 signs around 40" x 80", all mounted on cor-x and none of them laminated. Used Big Squeegee to mount... no problems. Like Gino said, just takes experience to mount large, unlaminated stuff. Same goes for most Ultraboard (Gatorboard) stuff we do. If it's mounted on PVC, aluminum or Dibond, it's intended for longer term, thus gets laminated.

 

[Circleville Signs]

For small "temp" signs (and I define small as 3'x6' or smaller), we dont' laminate and never will unless the client specifically requests it. From an application standpoint, invest in a few sizes of big squeegee, and your unlaminated prints become easier to apply than your laminated ones!

I can apply 50 18"x24", double sided signs in a hour with the appropriate BS.

 

[jiarby]

I do not lam vinyl for coro signs
I do lam vinyl for magnets to protect the print from abrasions.
I do lam vinyl for Omega A-Frames
I always lam any printed decal (door, wall, window)

 

[gabagoo]

OK you solvent people out there.

I posted this before in a different thread but back in oct 06 I had printed some decals on calendered material, when the job was finished I had leftovers. One had a 3 ml lam on it and the other nothing. My rear door faces south and gets sun all day.
Now I know you American people sometimes think us Canucks live in igloos and yes it is absolutely true..... but today for instance it is 30 degrees celcius out with a whacking high humidity to boot. We often gets temps in the 90's....yes it's true!!!!.

So anyways these 2 decals have been sitting on that southerly facing hot azzed door for almost 4 years and to look at them you can see a little fade in the non laminated and basically none in the laminated one.

Solvent inks are far more durable than most like to believe, although from a scuff resistance factor I can understand laminating them.

my 3 cents

 

[thesignguy1986]

so, kr3signguy...take it then you don't/wouldn't laminate coro then!.......by the looks of it alot of people do! 
and i'm going on what information i was told by someone whos been doing signs for 22 years now that the coro will fail outside before the print fades or is useless...... hence the question i posted, want to make sure i'm giving the customer a good quality sign so they come back and recommend us to others!

You should always laminate. You say you want to give the customer a good quality sign well if there on coroplast or not lamination is going make it alot better. Though coroplast may be short term I do have some coro signs that are still in use after 2 years. Personally I'd be mad if the reason the sign went bad was because you didn't laminate. It cheap and costs only pennies to do so go with the percentage of people and laminate.

 

[gnatt66]

laminate coroplast signs? hell naw.

unless they were used for some other purpose than roadside/short term/etc.

 

[signswi]

Baz……
For jesse.... that's the whole point. For the most part, Cor-X isn't going to hold up any longer with lam on it or not. Most Cor-X only lasts about 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 years at best, with occasionally some lasting more, but that's rare. However, it wasn't any lam that made it last longer. It was probably the location or amount of climate that saw the sign that makes the difference. If one thinks laminate is going to make Cor-X last longer, then isn't the actual printed vinyl already acting that part of the equation ??

I can't think of a time when we actually have put lam on a coro sign but if you're debating it, like the OP is, I'm simply positing that sometimes you can solve those debates by letting your customers make the call and over time you'll develop a system that works for you and your audience. I'm guessing that if the OP did that he'd see that the vast majority of customers would opt for no-lam since the advantages are slight (more scratch resistance primarily) for what is essentially a temporary substrate.

 

[anotherdog]

I have Cor still looking good after 5 years out in all weather. The lam protects both the adhesive and extends the life of the Cor.

If you are concerned about material cost then the flatbed guys have it. There is no way you can be cheaper. So you are selling on quality and service (or your customer hasn't looked around and found the cheaper product).

Lam on adhesive still looks far better than flatbed. If your customer wants to stand out and the signs to outlast then it is your job to sell them on the better quality and the more personal design.