To Laminate or not-window perf

[Biker Scout]

Here's a recommendation from Jerry, worded so it's easy to understand:

Lamination ensures visibility:
If applied without lamination, the negative space can be filled with dust, dirt or rainwater. If someone is driving a vehicle with unlaminated perforated vinyl on the windows and it starts to rain, that vehicle quickly becomes a windowless panel van as the water fills the holes and distorts or blocks the driver's vision. The same can happen with dust or dirt. So installers should always laminate perforated vinyl on vehicles. Preferably with an optically clear overlaminate film. And, as always, wait 24 hours for outgassing or the film will become cloudy and generally... icky looking as the trapped solvent begin to react with the overlaminate.

 

[DesireeM]

I think it depends on how long you want the perf to last...most perforated vinyl has a fairly short lifespan anyways but the quality of the print will degrade quickly without lamination.
You need to ask yourself what the customer expectations are....if they think it's a long-term ad solution then they are already setting their hopes way too high. If they are expecting a couple of years out of it then you should laminate it. The first thing you should do is tell them what to expect.

In regards to the debate about laws etc....I think debating it is pointless because really....the bottom line is that if it's not laminated it WILL get all gunked up and either fail sooner or distort the driver's view. Whether it's illegal to have your rear and rear-side windows blocked is irrelevant. The person who purchased the perforated vinyl DID SO because they wanted to be able to still see out of the window. Otherwise they would have simply had you apply an opaque vinyl wrap. There's some common sense for ya.

Customer expects to be able to see. Customer expects it to last (however long you've advised them it should)
Laminate them and save yourself from an unsatisfied or angry customer 6 months from now.

 

[jfiscus]

always lam & always edge tape

 

[fresh]

So, while it might not be illegal in easy to read sentence form, they'll still pull ya over if they want and can cite you for some kinda law on the books. BUT, like y'all said, plaster them windows shut and don't worry about it. You won't get in trouble.... not at all.

So if the law actually exists, and you personally know someone who was cited for having their rear-windows obstructed, PLEASE prove it. Seriously, everything out of your mouth is worthless if you can't back it up with fact.

Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence is pretty worthless.

 

[Biker Scout]

Greed and cheapness run rampant through the sign and wrap world. I get it, optically clear lamination is expensive. But I hope one of the hacks gets caught out on a huge litigious lawsuit. That would make my day. When messing with people's lives and their vehicles, there's more responsibility on that of the installer. I don't see how this could be up for debate. Either be professional, and provide the best solution for the person operating a motor vehicle on our public roads or get out of the industry. (of just don't offer that service) The entry point for getting into this business is getting lower and lower everyday. That doesn't mean that we should be lowering our standards and professionalism.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Best solution according to who?

We find unlaminated much better then laminated, I always recommend unlaminated and I would replace the windows every year vs laminating if my client is worried about longevity.

 

[Gino]

So if the law actually exists, and you personally know someone who was cited for having their rear-windows obstructed, PLEASE prove it. Seriously, everything out of your mouth is worthless if you can't back it up with fact.

Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence is pretty worthless.

In my post #14, I already admitted I was wrong and that you more experienced professionals are absolutely correct. Do yourself a favor and listen to yourselves, rather than others with experience in these things. I have neither the time nor the desire to prove one way or another for you. That's not my job. I can tell you from personal experiences which you consider worthless, so why should I go on ?? You already know it all.

There are countless u-tubes on this stuff, google it and it pops up in cities all around the country, but don't believe me, you know better.

 

[DesireeM]

Best solution according to who?

We find unlaminated much better then laminated, I always recommend unlaminated and I would replace the windows every year vs laminating if my client is worried about longevity.

Why do you find unlaminated much better? for you or for the customer? You RECOMMEND it? What is your pitch for that? "They won't last long and you won't be able to see out of the windows but it's cheaper for me so..."

So you would throw away hundreds of dollars per year to re-do perforated window graphics instead of just doing them proper the first time? All in the hopes that the customer won't come back and ask you to re-do them.
I hate to break it to you but if they aren't asking you to re-do them already it's because they are going elsewhere.
How about your reputation? Is that worth the cost to laminate?

 

[Biker Scout]

I've heard cases where in some states that have real strict tint laws, even on the rear of the vehicle, they can give you grief over having window perf. Because what's the light transmittance of window perf? Depends on where the meter sensor is placed. They could make it have a reading of 0%. If it's defused over a larger area and you actually have 50/50 perf on the window, and the holes are dirty and there is already tint on the glass or even factory tint, the meter will still give the officer a light transmittance number. And it will be lower the recommended 35%. Don't think they don't know this. Window perf on clear glass with optically clear lamination, in this instance could pass the light transmittance test of at tint meter. But certainly not if your window perf is loaded up with road grime.

 

[Biker Scout]

Lazy is another good reason not to laminate with optically clear over window perf. Because it's way easier to install without it. Plus it takes a special skill to not get squeegee marks on the lam over the film when applying it. But that's too hard.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Actually in the desert here its much easier to see out of unlaminated perf then laminated... we also have a problem with condensation build up between the glass and laminate when the humidity levels drop over night which means no see at all.

That is 100% why I don't laminate windows and recommend against it... when it gets "mucked up" wash your damn vehicle!

The perf on my truck is over 1 year old still looks good and doesn't ever cause visibility problems unless it rains, which i just use side mirrors.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Why do you find unlaminated much better? for you or for the customer? You RECOMMEND it? What is your pitch for that? "They won't last long and you won't be able to see out of the windows but it's cheaper for me so..."

So you would throw away hundreds of dollars per year to re-do perforated window graphics instead of just doing them proper the first time? All in the hopes that the customer won't come back and ask you to re-do them.
I hate to break it to you but if they aren't asking you to re-do them already it's because they are going elsewhere.
How about your reputation? Is that worth the cost to laminate?

We have 5 companies on a yearly cycle that we replace the window perf the same time every year... most of our other clients will call us when they want them replaced. Haven't lost any clients over it, so I guess it works!

We also use it as a time to inspect the wraps and repair any damages that may have occurred over time, use, and abuse.

 

[Gino]

:ROFLMAO: you live in a desert and you use your mirrors when/if it rains. What do you get ?? Like 8 inches a year in a wet one ??




:Oops:... you do a lotta these. I forgot. Guess you don't have much color shifting either. Not using laminate will help control the inks/fading far better in the dessert, too, huh ??

What's that bus say ?? I don't know.... every 3 foot or so is blank cause of no rain on the windows, but they can backup and not hit a thing.

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Okay, that's enough of this crap, let's find something useful to fight about or solve, not these stoopid p!ssing matches. :Sleeping:
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[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Okay, that's enough of this crap, let's find something useful to fight about or solve, not these stoopid p!ssing matches. :Sleeping:
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Yes we get very little rain and that was my point... and yes do our fair share of window perf on vehicles. I go through (2) 54" x 164' rolls a month so I guess its enough to be able to say what works for us.

I don't worry about the color fading of the inks since we replace the perf for our clients anyway, so whats the point?

Tired of the pissing matches, aren't you the cause of 99% of them on here?

 

[AnthonyRalano]

I have always heard that it has to be laminated. It seems that Chevy would be in violation of the law for making this vehicle if we have to laminate. Lock them up and throw away the key.

 

[Gino]

Yes we get very little rain and that was my point... and yes do our fair share of window perf on vehicles. I go through (2) 54" x 164' rolls a month so I guess its enough to be able to say what works for us.

I don't worry about the color fading of the inks since we replace the perf for our clients anyway, so whats the point?

Tired of the pissing matches, aren't you the cause of 99% of them on here?

Nope. I'm involved with most of them, since I don't give up when someone like yourself contradicts yourself up/down & sideways.

I don't care if you're a large company, small mom & pop, young punk or an old grouchy fistf*cker..... if you're gonna say stoopid things, then just explain yourself. I gave up on the proving this by the law, but your reasons just are inconsistent.

Let me just give one illustration here.

You say you have 5 or so big companies that have X amount of vehicles which get no over laminate. They're Okay with that and bringing the vehicles back at least once a year cause you have little to no rain. You don't care about fading, color shifting or anything else, because you have your customers trained to replace something that isn't needed if done right the first time. If I had 5 large fleets all needing perf material, I'd be going through a lot more a month, but suffice it to say, I don't have the nerve to tell someone they need to spend extra money two to three times over what a professional shop would do, just once up front. Laziness is no excuse for convincing someone they need to do something which most of us know is plain double-talk. You wanna tell your customers you're doing good by them.... go ahead, but in reality you're screwing them. Do they know it ?? Evidently not. So more power to ya for getting more money out of them for giving a sub-par product. Eventually something will proably catch up to you. For me and our customers, we/they know we are giving them the best of our ability and the manufacturers ability. They are educated up front if they wanna take the high or low road, but at least our customers DO have a choice, unlike yours.


Whatever, go on believing I start the p!ssing matches, just because my name is connected to many of them, but at least I don't knowing go around screwing our customers or the other members here, unless provoked.

 

[fresh]

View attachment 98481 I have always heard that it has to be laminated. It seems that Chevy would be in violation of the law for making this vehicle if we have to laminate. Lock them up and throw away the key.

And don't forget every single one of these guys.

 

[Biker Scout]

That's a commercial vehicle. Not a passenger vehicle. For some things they have more lax regulations. (Because it helps with commerce)

And why would you put window film on a solid van? We are talking about glass, safety and visibility.

 

[AnthonyRalano]

My personal feeling is to just laminate it. Yes it goes down like butter without it. Yes its amazing just watching the perf go down and all of the air just pouring out of the holes. But the customer is trusting you to give them something that is quality. You told them they can see out of it, then they should. Rain or shine.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Nope. I'm involved with most of them, since I don't give up when someone like yourself contradicts yourself up/down & sideways.

I don't care if you're a large company, small mom & pop, young punk or an old grouchy fistf*cker..... if you're gonna say stoopid things, then just explain yourself. I gave up on the proving this by the law, but your reasons just are inconsistent.

Let me just give one illustration here.

You say you have 5 or so big companies that have X amount of vehicles which get no over laminate. They're Okay with that and bringing the vehicles back at least once a year cause you have little to no rain. You don't care about fading, color shifting or anything else, because you have your customers trained to replace something that isn't needed if done right the first time. If I had 5 large fleets all needing perf material, I'd be going through a lot more a month, but suffice it to say, I don't have the nerve to tell someone they need to spend extra money two to three times over what a professional shop would do, just once up front. Laziness is no excuse for convincing someone they need to do something which most of us know is plain double-talk. You wanna tell your customers you're doing good by them.... go ahead, but in reality you're screwing them. Do they know it ?? Evidently not. So more power to ya for getting more money out of them for giving a sub-par product. Eventually something will proably catch up to you. For me and our customers, we/they know we are giving them the best of our ability and the manufacturers ability. They are educated up front if they wanna take the high or low road, but at least our customers DO have a choice, unlike yours.


Whatever, go on believing I start the p!ssing matches, just because my name is connected to many of them, but at least I don't knowing go around screwing our customers or the other members here, unless provoked.

Where did I contradict myself? and Where did I say my customers don't have a choice? If they want something I give them the product I just don't recommend it. Also where did I say size of the companies that are on a set schedule or how many vehicles they have?

So let me ask you this, We stopped laminating along time ago when a few of our customers complained that the perf would fog up when the humidity went from high to low and they had no way of clearing it to see. Would you continue doing something that your customers complained about?

Who says I charge my clients more for the extra perf? I never did. I give them the FREE replacements once per year for the first 2 years and its gets them to bring the vehicles back for inspections. Win Win for both parties and I'm not losing much of anything because half the time we have more then enough waste to cover the print and it typically only take 10mins to remove and replace the perf, but I gain the ability to catch potential problems as they start.

Now lets get on to color shifting, do you not profile your medias for the way you use them? If you know that you print something unlaminated wouldn't you profile it to match your laminated products they get paired with?

Which customers of mine have I screwed and which members here? 1) the thread started asking what we do, and 2) its still up to any member here to choose what is the right path for them. If I listened to half of what was told to me I'd be dead.