To meat or not to meat, that is the question.

[TimToad]

Didn't want to hijack the other thread, but any buffoon who thinks a conscious choice to both improve one's own health, the impacts on the planet and be socially responsible for the other species we share this fragile and damaged orb is wrong or to be criticized is just full of horse manure.

Choosing to eat lower on the food chain has been in practice for thousands of years and its only dumb, white, redneck Americans who think they can eat their way to heaven and avoid all the health and environmental consequences. We as a society eat the most meat on the planet and must accept the ethical, health and environmental consequences of such a stature.

A mediterranean and middle eastern diet has long been determined to be as healthy of a diet as one could adopt. That's not some new fad created a few years ago. It predates the very inception of this nation by thousands of years. Its the epitome of smugness to ignore that just because you're particular sacred cow was gored on another thread.

There is no source more reputable exists than John Hopkins Medical Center and this is what they have concluded. Not to mention most accredited dietary and environmental organizations.

http://www.jhsph.edu/research/cente...atless_monday/resources/meat_consumption.html

http://www.eatingwell.com/healthy_c...uides/8_ways_to_follow_the_mediterranean_diet

http://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/risk-red-meat

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-meat-idUSKCN0SK16P20151026

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/meat-dairy-may-be-as-detrimental-to-your-health-as-smoking-cigarettes/

 

[Gino]

Ya know, if you keep going on with all of your sideways snarky name calling and stuff, you're gonna get your own thread locked down.

Otherwise, keep the name calling and blinders off and perhaps we can actually have a discussion or debate on the subject. This is what I was talking about in the other thread. Glad to see you had the gumption to do it.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

You know, when I was getting my degree in equine nutrition and reproduction, this actually came up alot.

There were a lot of compare and contrast going on between equine (and other livestock) compared to humans, both nutritionally and re productively. It helped put things in perspective.

What I have taken from that and applied to my own herd as well as in the nutritional choices that I make, moderation in everything.

Of course, to me, the danger isn't so much of the generic choice of meat v. veggie (or in some cases fruit, people tend to think of some food stuffs as veggies when they are technically fruit), but in what goes into the production of said meat and veggies (fruit).


I think it is far more related to just how processed our foods are compared to other countries. And also related to GMO usage as well (or lack thereof). Even Mediterranean diets include seafood and read meat (and even animal milk as well). Not as much as people do here, but then again, that brings up moderation in everything.

 

[HDvinyl]

The weak were always gatherers, the strong went after the protein.

 

[bob]

Didn't want to hijack the other thread, but any buffoon who thinks a conscious choice to both improve one's own health, the impacts on the planet and be socially responsible for the other species we share this fragile and damaged orb is wrong or to be criticized is just full of horse manure.

...merciful deletia...

Before you run out into traffic, the point is that whatever your dietary choices might be, the reason you have choices at all is because the society of which you are a part has sufficient abundance to allow you a choice. To mock the very society that allows you these choices is rather hypocritical. Were these choice not allowed you, you would be out hunting and gathering every waking hour merely to be able to wake up and do it again. Repeat forever.

Moreover, to rationalize the choices you have made, whatever they might be, as somehow having any impact whatsoever on the external reality displays a level of self-importance seldom seen this side of a political rally. This planet has been here eons before the appearance of the human race and will be here for eons after the last traces that we ever existed are gone. Thus far humanity has not managed to leave a single permanent mark on its surface. Nor is it likely to do so in the future.

Further, to hold that some diet other than omnivorous is inherently a healthier choice is to deny what you are. An omnivore. Gorging on animal protein is no different than gorging on plant protein. Both are silly. All things in moderation. Even moderation. Meaning that you could if not should blow it all out every now and then with no long lasting ill effects.

 

[TimToad]

The weak were always gatherers, the strong went after the protein.

Actually, they weren't called "hunters OR gatherers" for a reason. That's because each person in the tribe, village, OR whatever had a a role to play in accumulating the food stuffs. I'm positive the tasks were delegated by skill, ability and prowess, not individual dietary preference. When you say weak, that may be partially true, but I'd say it had more to do with age or infirmity than laziness or lack of effort. In fact, among the pueblan cultures, laziness was one of the most detestable character traits.

I know these things because for 12 years, I lived near Bandelier National Monument in NM where large numbers of hunter/gatherers lived in caves and cliff dwellings for thousands of years. Its a place with a fascinating history of teamwork, cooperative living and neighborly civility. I'd recommend a trip there or to Mesa Verde in SW Colorado or Chaco Culture Historical Park in NW New Mexico.

 

[Billct2]

I've been to all three of those places, beautiful and spiritual country.
As for our choices, many of those choices were decided by profit not by health.

 

[player]

Pizza is a vegetable.

 

[GAC05]

 

[HDvinyl]

I think those are marijuana brownies, not vegan.

 

[d fleming]

I got pointy teeth for tearing flesh and flat ones for plants. I'm good with it.

 

[TimToad]

Before you run out into traffic, the point is that whatever your dietary choices might be, the reason you have choices at all is because the society of which you are a part has sufficient abundance to allow you a choice. To mock the very society that allows you these choices is rather hypocritical. Were these choice not allowed you, you would be out hunting and gathering every waking hour merely to be able to wake up and do it again. Repeat forever.

Moreover, to rationalize the choices you have made, whatever they might be, as somehow having any impact whatsoever on the external reality displays a level of self-importance seldom seen this side of a political rally. This planet has been here eons before the appearance of the human race and will be here for eons after the last traces that we ever existed are gone. Thus far humanity has not managed to leave a single permanent mark on its surface. Nor is it likely to do so in the future.

Further, to hold that some diet other than omnivorous is inherently a healthier choice is to deny what you are. An omnivore. Gorging on animal protein is no different than gorging on plant protein. Both are silly. All things in moderation. Even moderation. Meaning that you could if not should blow it all out every now and then with no long lasting ill effects.

I always look each way before I cross the street, but thanks for the advice.

I'm not mocking our society, I'm admonishing and expressing my contempt for folks like you who have the audacity to criticize and insult another poster who has made a conscious choice to be a vegan simply because his choice is different than whatever your dietary preferences or political views are. For you of all posters to throw the word smug at anybody on these boards takes quite a bit of chutzpah. Just because you couch your insults in academic, well spoken language doesn't make it any less of an insult to those on the receiving end. I didn't sense any profession of superiority from the poster who started this tangent. I think he was just trying to be funny, then you all just had to defend the Ugly American perch you reside on and jump his shiit. If you and others hadn't jumped on his back, he'd probably have left it alone.

Your belief that vegetarianism whether it be for health, ethical or abundance reasons is some new age fad borne of our overflowing abundance of more food than we know what to do with reveals a lack of world view that I just can't accept. But for all this meat eating and the perception of choice and abundance, we have an awful lot of hungry people in this bread basket of the world. I'm involved with my local food bank and the need is staggering. Most hungry folk would gladly take all the vegan ANYTHING they could get to fill their empty stomach. Instead of trying to see which of has the bigger vocabulary and penchant for hurling insults at each other, maybe the topic should also delve into how any of us sleep at night knowing that in the midst of all this abundance we have the highest incidence of child hunger in the developed world.

I'll grant you that we have an abundance of food that on the surface makes it seem like its a luxury to choose what we eat, but I view those who eat lower on the food chain for whatever reason as being forward thinking and being possession of their accountability for their own part of our planet's health, their own health (which saves all you fiscal conservatives tons of taxpayer money in the long run) and the way we treat other sentient beings as a species.

Yes, perhaps the choices one person makes at this late stage of industrialized humans inhabiting the earth the way we've grown accustom to doing may not make a difference. To say we as a species haven't left a mark or impact is the stuff of naive fools who are in denial about most everything relating to habitat loss, pollution, toxic waste, species eradication, climate change, etc. not to mention the levels of artificial inputs we now must inject into our ecosystems just to live the lifestyle we arrogantly think is the cat's meow. Try growing any of this abundance of food stuffs we all enjoy without massive artificial inputs in terms of fertilizers, pesticides, growth hormones, antibiotics, insecticides, fungicides, etc. All the stuff of which our largely sick and unhealthy society is languishing from having too much of.

Come off the ranch every so often and open your eyes to the world around you, the picture ain't so pretty when one looks at just how sickly both physically and psychologically the average American is. Our levels of addiction, depravity and violence towards each other and the flora and fauna around us is mind boggling.

 

[mfatty500]

Beer, Booze, P***y, and Red meat. I'm not here for long time, just a good time!

 

[WildWestDesigns]

not to mention the levels of artificial inputs we now must inject into our ecosystems just to live the lifestyle we arrogantly think is the cat's meow. Try growing any of this abundance of food stuffs we all enjoy without massive artificial inputs in terms of fertilizers, pesticides, growth hormones, antibiotics, insecticides, fungicides, etc. All the stuff of which our largely sick and unhealthy society is languishing from having too much of.

Artificial inputs is actually a concern rather or not you eat meat or veggies (or fruit) as a staple of your diet.

There are not many foodstuffs that don't have artificial something in them, even fruits and veggies. The issue isn't so much rather to eat plant material or to eat meat, it's what's involved in both of their production and the excess as well. That's where "you" need to start. Not rather it's to eat meat or not to eat meat. Both have importance to our diets, it's the quantities and how they are produced is the catch.

 

[OldPaint]

well all the posts and not one who has ever been a vegitarian................giving all the reason they AINT)))) to funny how people respond to things they know nothing about.
i will start by saying i was born 1945, and vegetarians were unheard of by most of the population of this nation. my parents one was russian & the other italian, so my food choices were learned from them. i grew up eating MESA, russian for meat, pasta from the italian mother and every pasta sauce had meat in it))))) ravioli, halupki(cabbage rolls), stuffed peppers, perogi, coch-a nin-a(boiled pigs feet in its own jello), homemade italian sasuage, kielbasi, kish-ka(blood sausage) shun-ka(ham), and tripe(cows stomach). we also made our own prosciutto(italian ham jerky)and raised our own chickens. killed the ones we ate. later years i lived on a dairy farm, we raised our own beef, pigs chickens and in the fall we butchered a few cows & pigs, and had em wrapped for the freeze. so i am well versed and experienced of how to whats alive and walking to the table. same with wild animals, deer, pheasant rabbit and even squirrels. the killing, skinning, gutting sure dont make for the appetite !!!!!!!! it is a gruesome, smelly stomach wrenching process. my favorite of these foods then was the beef or pork fat, chicken skin(fryed)chicken innards, or know as organ meat. did these for many years till bout 1986-87 and at 42 had a wake up heart attack. yep that young. i also smoked cigaretts from 10 years old .......was hittin 3 packs day when i quit. after the heart attack. took a couple years to feel better and we decided to start doing TAI CHI. the people who were teaching also had become vegitarians. so with my heart history.....why not try that. we did and i was a LACTO-OVO VEGITARIAN FOR THE NEXT 19 YEARS)))) wife still is, i reverted back to a full cannibal because i was told after my open heart surgery(double by pas)that 85% of the cholesterol the body creates..............comes from CARBS. as a vegetarian all i ate was carbs. but the body metabolism was different for most of those yeas till i hit the 60-62 mark.
now i am mostly protein ingestion........ every morning, .eggs and sausage/bacon (no toast or potato)fried chicken, pulled pork, fish, or any other meat based food.........stay away from veggie main stays......PASTA, POTATO, RICE, BEANS, BREAD..............that stuff is wonderful but its what kills ya.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

well all the posts and not one who has ever been a vegitarian................giving all the reason they AINT)))) to funny how people respond to things they know nothing about.
.

I didn't personally try, no.. but my sister and niece did. Full bore. Didn't go so well.

My nutritional education, or at least what I took from that education, tells me moderation. Make smart choices.

Then you have my grandmother, who just died this past September at the flower of her youth at 101 (she would have been 102 last month). In my time of knowing her, she never ate a veggie (a true veggie, not a fruit that people think is a veggie) at all when I was present. In fact, some people would have said the secret to long life is a shot of bourbon and half a dozen strips of bacon. With her it was KFC. The Colonial's secret recipe was the secret to long life.

 

[GAC05]

Old Paint you sure it wasn't the OneShot clogging up your arteries?


wayne k
guam usa

 

[OldPaint]

more in likely it was the LEAD........ in the 1 shot))))i been playin in 1 shot since i was 10..........1961 i got my 1st car. 1950 ford 4 dr. paint was all gone on it so i decided to paint it. in those day you could by a 20 0z spray can of RED LEAD PRIMER)))) i did the whole car in it. some place had these cans of paint for $1.99 each)))))
back to the veggie life.
i want to say for me.........becoming a veggie was good thing and it really helped me survive a lot longer without any medical issues till i turned 60. after having a heart attack at 42, doing the vegie lifestyle and the TAI CHI really extended my good years a lot longer then if i would stayed a full blown carnivore. eating meat for ne now is a better option for its easier to get me feed ANYWHERE.......now. love ARBYS..........eat the meat chuck the bread.......wish i would a never discovered SONIC CHILI CHEESE HOT DOGS)))))))))))))))))))))))i thing they are addicting))))

 

[J Hill Designs]

Before you run out into traffic, the point is that whatever your dietary choices might be, the reason you have choices at all is because the society of which you are a part has sufficient abundance to allow you a choice. To mock the very society that allows you these choices is rather hypocritical. Were these choice not allowed you, you would be out hunting and gathering every waking hour merely to be able to wake up and do it again. Repeat forever.

Moreover, to rationalize the choices you have made, whatever they might be, as somehow having any impact whatsoever on the external reality displays a level of self-importance seldom seen this side of a political rally. This planet has been here eons before the appearance of the human race and will be here for eons after the last traces that we ever existed are gone. Thus far humanity has not managed to leave a single permanent mark on its surface. Nor is it likely to do so in the future.

Further, to hold that some diet other than omnivorous is inherently a healthier choice is to deny what you are. An omnivore. Gorging on animal protein is no different than gorging on plant protein. Both are silly. All things in moderation. Even moderation. Meaning that you could if not should blow it all out every now and then with no long lasting ill effects.

straight up end of discussion. moderation is key.
eat broccoli all day every day and only broccoli and it will kill you.
moderation.

 

[player]

Corporate food manufacturing has pounded the "food" out of their products in favor of profits and shelf life. They spend $millions to falsely portray their crap as good for you, when in reality it is long term poison.

Try to stay away from food that is not raw and unprocessed, or comes in a box. Avoid trans fats, hydrogenated oil, sulfides, corn syrup, GMO's, and sodium.