Todays school aged kids get gentle grades...

[Notarealsignguy]

You are assuming that education is still rigorous. And it's not.

You're assuming it isn't. And it is. There is no evidence to support what you said there.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

My grandfather, same side of the family, was denied a job because of no degree. Had the experience and knowledge, but no degree. They hired someone with a degree, but no experience. The person that had the position before wanted my grandfather to get it. Now probably thinking why I am mentioning this as it seems to go against what I am arguing. How long do you think it was before the there was issues with that decision? Not long at all. That hire didn't turn out as well as they had hoped.

Doesn't mean your grandfather would have done any better. A bad hire doesn't bolster the anti-college stance one bit.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Thats right. You are talking to some one that didn't take out loans, nor have mommy and daddy pay for it. Again, one of the reasons it took so long for me.

And I did go to a cheaper school, however, since most of my classes centered around science, that still cost more compared to other degrees, so there is still a scale of cost.

Now of course, there is the get what one pays for as well. Cheap school, may indeed mean cheap education. May or may not be true, but there is that as well.

You're kind of going down the rabbit hole here for the sake of an argument. I don't know where you went to school but a credit hour is a credit hour in terms of cost. Could be dance class or could be physics. When I say cheaper school I am talking state schools and community colleges which are accredited, not some sham for profit nonsense. I got my degree in 3 years, just did the grind and left. No reason to take summers off, took a light load, worked full time and saved what I could for the upcoming year. During the year I worked nights and weekends. Not a big deal. I have never understood all of the bellyaching about it.

 

[Geneva Olson]

You're assuming it isn't. And it is. There is no evidence to support what you said there.

I actually did.
in 1988, when I was in college, there was 1 remedial math class and 1 remedial reading class. Since then, there are now 3 remedial math classes (7th, 8th and prealgebra). There are also 3 remedial reading classes. My focus was math because I was a math teacher. I was also asked if I would like to work at the local jr college (without a masters degree) to teach these remedial math classes.
Having been in education and working for the 3rd largest district in Texas, I can absolutely tell you that they have dumbed down our nation. And they have done it very strategically.
You would think that TOP 10% would be the same in every school. It should be. But, it's not. The public education system has been cooking the books like Enron for a very long time. There are policies in place set out by the federal government.
1 - we had a policy where no student got less than a 50 in the gradebook. EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T TURN ANYTHING IN. In 2017, I had a student who turned NOTHING in.
2 - When a student fails a core content class, they have to fail 2 core content in order to repeat one or both. (for instance, a student failed math...it's ok. But if he fails math AND history, he must take math summer schoool. History is a core content subject but generally speaking, they didn't spend time having history has a content that would be repeated in the summer. they just try to do better on state testing).
3 - Rigor is based on where you live. It sounds racist to say, and it is. I can tell you I taught in a school where I was the only white person in the room. I Was told that the reason why students failed in THAT school was because their parents worked to make ends meet. Their kids had to take care of the chores and siblings, so we were told to give them a break on homework and grades. What's interesting is that I was a single mom and lived in an upper middle class community. The rules were different for my kids. But more importantly, I had the same exact scenario at my home as what MY administrators were telling me about my students. And I never received "grace" from my kids school. My kids had to turn in their assignments. They had homework and they had rigor.
4- The public education system is designed to keep people in poverty. Those people who wanted to get degrees that lived in the poverty area that I taught, (parents of my students), thy suffered through working day jobs and going to school at night at the local jr college. They had to take those remedial courses to catch up. Those courses are money out of pocket that don't count for the degree. So obtaining their degree can take up to a year longer just to catch up.

 

[Gino]

Don't touch the stuff, so regardless of what time of the day, don't have that excuse to fall back on.

And having had family members that did have that issue, 7 in the morning wouldn't have mattered.

Maybe you oughta.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I actually did.
in 1988, when I was in college, there was 1 remedial math class and 1 remedial reading class. Since then, there are now 3 remedial math classes (7th, 8th and prealgebra). There are also 3 remedial reading classes. My focus was math because I was a math teacher. I was also asked if I would like to work at the local jr college (without a masters degree) to teach these remedial math classes.
Having been in education and working for the 3rd largest district in Texas, I can absolutely tell you that they have dumbed down our nation. And they have done it very strategically.
You would think that TOP 10% would be the same in every school. It should be. But, it's not. The public education system has been cooking the books like Enron for a very long time. There are policies in place set out by the federal government.
1 - we had a policy where no student got less than a 50 in the gradebook. EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T TURN ANYTHING IN. In 2017, I had a student who turned NOTHING in.
2 - When a student fails a core content class, they have to fail 2 core content in order to repeat one or both. (for instance, a student failed math...it's ok. But if he fails math AND history, he must take math summer schoool. History is a core content subject but generally speaking, they didn't spend time having history has a content that would be repeated in the summer. they just try to do better on state testing).
3 - Rigor is based on where you live. It sounds racist to say, and it is. I can tell you I taught in a school where I was the only white person in the room. I Was told that the reason why students failed in THAT school was because their parents worked to make ends meet. Their kids had to take care of the chores and siblings, so we were told to give them a break on homework and grades. What's interesting is that I was a single mom and lived in an upper middle class community. The rules were different for my kids. But more importantly, I had the same exact scenario at my home as what MY administrators were telling me about my students. And I never received "grace" from my kids school. My kids had to turn in their assignments. They had homework and they had rigor.
4- The public education system is designed to keep people in poverty. Those people who wanted to get degrees that lived in the poverty area that I taught, (parents of my students), thy suffered through working day jobs and going to school at night at the local jr college. They had to take those remedial courses to catch up. Those courses are money out of pocket that don't count for the degree. So obtaining their degree can take up to a year longer just to catch up.

We were talking about college, not public schools. Extra remedial classes also disproves what you said earlier, if things are getting easier, then why is there a need for any remedial classes let alone more. Id also like to see what college actually has something called remedial math. That's grade school stuff because states are required to educate everybody to the high school level. Colleges have no such requirements.

 

[Scotchbrite]

We were talking about college, not public schools. Extra remedial classes also disproves what you said earlier, if things are getting easier, then why is there a need for any remedial classes let alone more. Id also like to see what college actually has something called remedial math. That's grade school stuff because states are required to educate everybody to the high school level. Colleges have no such requirements.

Many college students struggle to pass remedial math. Do they need to?

Colleges created remedial education classes to ensure students were sufficiently prepared for more advanced material. But increasingly, there’s a sense that remedial courses are hurting the prospects of the students they are intended to help. As a result, some California colleges and high...

www.pbs.org

 

[Johnny Best]

These post sound like 3 or 4 men sitting outside the hardware store back when I was a kid. I was one of those "kids today". I have a college degree, because if you were not in college you got drafted for Viet Nam, which I never used and taught at the Art Institute for awhile while running my sign company. Teaching is not a fun job. Used the extra money I made that year to start a SEP IRA. Still have that money after 40 years and at 72 years old had to start taking it out, which the IRS taxes.
Three of my kids have college degrees, my one daughter does porn and makes more than all three.

 

[Boudica]

We were talking about college, not public schools. Extra remedial classes also disproves what you said earlier, if things are getting easier, then why is there a need for any remedial classes let alone more. Id also like to see what college actually has something called remedial math. That's grade school stuff because states are required to educate everybody to the high school level. Colleges have no such requirements.

I had remedial math in college. I must have had a dyslexic moment when I was registering. I thought I registered for Math 101, but I actually registered for Math 010.

 

[RabidOne]

My step father has a degree in music, pretty useless degree. He was a heavy equipment mechanic and welder into his 40s, money was tight, he worked 2 jobs and it was got more physically difficult as time went on. He was on a jobsite and approached about a position with an equipment manufacturer which he took and has been there for 25-30 years. Clean job, not physically demanding but required his same mechanical skills. It required 2 things, field experience in heavy equipment repair and a college degree. Without the useless music degree, he would still be turning wrenches today. That degree did not hurt him but it did open a door that otherwise would have remained closed.

I went to school for business before I got into the print world. Every time I have applied for a management job I get it because of the piece of paper.

 

[Scotchbrite]

I'm pretty sure most remedial college classes are 0 credit. They're prep classes. When I went to community college after the navy, they wanted to stick me in that class since I'd been 6 years out of high school. I could test out of it fortunately, but they wouldn't let me test out of the next class. They didn't give me any credit for the schooling I did in the navy. Some colleges would.

If everyone goes to college and gets a managerial job, who's going to do the actual work?

 

[RabidOne]

My experience with school is probably much different than most on here being from Canada.
I have to disagree about generalizing Millenials as all slackers. My son, his girlfriend and his friends all seem to be working hard to get somewhere in life.
No doubt I see hiring new staff includes wading through a lot of useless chaf. But over the last 10 years we have had nothing but good luck hiring people out of the local community college.
Smart motivated Millenials are out there.

Where I see post secondary as a waste of time and money is when you don't have a plan. "Go to school, you will get a job!"
If you don't have any idea what you want to do and you have finite finances, blowing it by taking a bunch of psychology & history classes is a really good way to come out of university with an undergraduate degree and no job skills.

 

[Geneva Olson]

We were talking about college, not public schools. Extra remedial classes also disproves what you said earlier, if things are getting easier, then why is there a need for any remedial classes let alone more. Id also like to see what college actually has something called remedial math. That's grade school stuff because states are required to educate everybody to the high school level. Colleges have no such requirements

We are talking about college. HOWEVER, the push in public education is for everyone to go to college. (the idea is that a higher education pushes society to become more advanced. HOWEVER, they are passing students along. I'm not sure where you have the disconnect that public education doesn't have anything to do with college. The remedial classes are an extra revenue source for the unversities because they don't count toward the degree itself.
I just did a quick google search of the local jr college's math classes. They are as follows: math:030 - Pre algebra, math0308 - introductory algebra, math0310 - intermediate algebra. Those don't count for college credit.

 

[Geneva Olson]

My experience with school is probably much different than most on here being from Canada.
I have to disagree about generalizing Millenials as all slackers. My son, his girlfriend and his friends all seem to be working hard to get somewhere in life.
No doubt I see hiring new staff includes wading through a lot of useless chaf. But over the last 10 years we have had nothing but good luck hiring people out of the local community college.
Smart motivated Millenials are out there.

Where I see post secondary as a waste of time and money is when you don't have a plan. "Go to school, you will get a job!"
If you don't have any idea what you want to do and you have finite finances, blowing it by taking a bunch of psychology & history classes is a really good way to come out of university with an undergraduate degree and no job skills.

and thereby proving MY point to Notarealsignguy . My degree is in psychology and a bunch of history classes.. My original intention was to get a masters and counsel. (But life got in the way, I got married and had kids and took a different path after college. I did not get a high paying job. I was a drug counselor in a methadone clinic taking people's urine samples and asking if they had goten a job yet. I made $8 an hour. I went on to work for aetna insurance corp. I moved up the corporate ladder there, but none of my bosses had degrees. Go figure.

But, let me tell you, I've used my degree a whole bunch in my personal life (the running joke is that i have a BS in psychology to screw with people). But seriously, it's about what's happening in the world and the propaganda. It's like I'm reading several of my text books again.

 

[Stacey K]

My BF's oldest sons - one dropped out of high school, he's very street smart but not book smart. He is a very good welder. The middle child...ah...he DID graduate but was in "special" classes because of ADHD. He could not count his graduation money, I had to do it. He can barely read or write. He welds but struggles with the blue prints. The youngest son is smart as a whip and going to be a police officer.

Why on earth the middle child was passed and he can't even count his own graduation money is beyond me. However, he's good with this hands so there will always be a place for him in the work force.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

and thereby proving MY point to Notarealsignguy . My degree is in psychology and a bunch of history classes.. My original intention was to get a masters and counsel. (But life got in the way, I got married and had kids and took a different path after college. I did not get a high paying job. I was a drug counselor in a methadone clinic taking people's urine samples and asking if they had goten a job yet. I made $8 an hour. I went on to work for aetna insurance corp. I moved up the corporate ladder there, but none of my bosses had degrees. Go figure.

But, let me tell you, I've used my degree a whole bunch in my personal life (the running joke is that i have a BS in psychology to screw with people). But seriously, it's about what's happening in the world and the propaganda. It's like I'm reading several of my text books again.

What proves your point? Because people that had no plan or path before college come out and still have no plan or path? In what way does that make college a bad move? Before they had limited choices and after they have a few more choices but still self limited. I still don't get your point. You said yourself that your life choices got in the way, it had nothing to do with whatever you did in college.

 

[Gino]

Y'all are getting to a scary point. I've seen interviews with college kids for years and some of them have no idea what the American Civil War was, let alone what about. Many have no idea who the last president was or the last handful of presidents. Many of them have no idea when this country was founded and you want them to do simple math, in their head, let alone calculations and sh!t ?? Many of them read at a third grade level and don't know how to sound out words. Folks, this is college kids. There are differences across the board in education and how it's taught, but we are catering to really dumb f*cks out there these days on ALL levels. Look around your neighborhood or go outside your safe living areas and what do you see ?? Years ago, the majority of home;ss were old bums and people on skid row. Not anymore. Is that the colleges' fault ?? Is that the teachers' fault ?? Is that the government's fault ??

Oh Geneva........ I was told by a very good friend of mine about 50 years ago who was the head psychologist at a hospital, that there are no real good psychologists out there. They're all people who needed lotsa help and saw how easy it was, so they pursued it and become one, too. He used to say, cripes, just look at me and how f*cked I am. I'm just good at covering it up and now know all the right questions and answers.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I'm pretty sure most remedial college classes are 0 credit. They're prep classes. When I went to community college after the navy, they wanted to stick me in that class since I'd been 6 years out of high school. I could test out of it fortunately, but they wouldn't let me test out of the next class. They didn't give me any credit for the schooling I did in the navy. Some colleges would.

If everyone goes to college and gets a managerial job, who's going to do the actual work?

Getting a college education does not stop you from working in a trade, like myself and many others on here have done. Not having a college degree can keep you from getting a managerial or other higher up position though. As a business owner, would you prefer to hire a young welder that has an engineering or drafting degree that you could make use of down the road or just a career welder. The place I used to work called it bench strength, they always tried to hire a person for future positions which helped protect them as other people moved on. In other words, they hired for potential, not just to fill a position.
To me the flaw is thinking that a degree will make you more money than a skilled tradesman. Generally it will not but it may make your life less physically demanding.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Y'all are getting to a scary point. I've seen interviews with college kids for years and some of them have no idea what the American Civil War was, let alone what about. Many have no idea who the last president was or the last handful of presidents. Many of them have no idea when this country was founded and you want them to do simple math, in their head, let alone calculations and sh!t ?? Many of them read at a third grade level and don't know how to sound out words. Folks, this is college kids. There are differences across the board in education and how it's taught, but we are catering to really dumb f*cks out there these days on ALL levels. Look around your neighborhood or go outside your safe living areas and what do you see ?? Years ago, the majority of home;ss were old bums and people on skid row. Not anymore. Is that the colleges' fault ?? Is that the teachers' fault ?? Is that the government's fault ??

Oh Geneva........ I was told by a very good friend of mine about 50 years ago who was the head psychologist at a hospital, that there are no real good psychologists out there. They're all people who needed lotsa help and saw how easy it was, so they pursued it and become one, too. He used to say, cripes, just look at me and how f*cked I am. I'm just good at covering it up and now know all the right questions and answers.

You can't fix ugly with lipstick.

 

[Gino]

Yesssssss, you can.