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Too many sign shops!!
- Thread starter Creative_Lance
- Start date
TCBinaflash
New Member
HaroldDesign
New Member
Interesting thread, as I sometimes wonder why I don't start a sign shop myself. I say that because my skill set seems it would fit quite nice~
- 5 years wood pattern-maker. Entailed about every damn tool and layout skill there is.
- 4 years art director for a printing company. All pre-press, design and much experience with large format printing equipment, plus real experience in Adobe on top of previous schooling.
- Currently (have been for a few years) manage large format department for a lithograph printing company, including all quoting, ordering, etc...
- Have done numerous hand-painted signs, art projects, logos, etc that have come my way through word of mouth, and I wasn't looking for the work.
This is a small nutshell overview. I think I know why I don't do it. 1) Start-up $. 2) Fear of the paperwork needed to protect myself, and how to keep legit with the government. I don't know - maybe I don't have what it takes. I don't think it would be easy. Maybe that's why I don't do it.
- 5 years wood pattern-maker. Entailed about every damn tool and layout skill there is.
- 4 years art director for a printing company. All pre-press, design and much experience with large format printing equipment, plus real experience in Adobe on top of previous schooling.
- Currently (have been for a few years) manage large format department for a lithograph printing company, including all quoting, ordering, etc...
- Have done numerous hand-painted signs, art projects, logos, etc that have come my way through word of mouth, and I wasn't looking for the work.
This is a small nutshell overview. I think I know why I don't do it. 1) Start-up $. 2) Fear of the paperwork needed to protect myself, and how to keep legit with the government. I don't know - maybe I don't have what it takes. I don't think it would be easy. Maybe that's why I don't do it.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Try running a horse facility. That would make the start up cost and paperwork for a sign shop seem like small fries.
Colin
New Member
Reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw: "Poverty is owning a horse"
Freehandan
New Member
It takes this....No Fear
100 no's means 1 yes.
You walk, drive or bike out there, Get the job(s) and Do Em!
That's how it works. You can get anything you want as far as supplies from the net and cash talks also. If you are painting signs, You paint until someone says something, then you say- "Well, I could go to the unemployment line!- and get your taxes!" or point to the business owner recieving the sign. ( they should know they are responsible if you are honest)
Computer generated signs on substrate can be hand-overs, don't install.
How much paperwork you need?, NonE
Government...Oh Well, times are tough.
Paperwork??? You got to make money to pay money.
They can only regulate the ones wanting to be regulated.
* also- if there were some locals reading- why would you say anything you would not admit to anyway?
And remember... a drunken irish diplomat once said..The only thing you have to fear....
-you should know the rest.
100 no's means 1 yes.
You walk, drive or bike out there, Get the job(s) and Do Em!
That's how it works. You can get anything you want as far as supplies from the net and cash talks also. If you are painting signs, You paint until someone says something, then you say- "Well, I could go to the unemployment line!- and get your taxes!" or point to the business owner recieving the sign. ( they should know they are responsible if you are honest)
Computer generated signs on substrate can be hand-overs, don't install.
How much paperwork you need?, NonE
Government...Oh Well, times are tough.
Paperwork??? You got to make money to pay money.
They can only regulate the ones wanting to be regulated.
* also- if there were some locals reading- why would you say anything you would not admit to anyway?
And remember... a drunken irish diplomat once said..The only thing you have to fear....
-you should know the rest.
Dave Drane
New Member
Locals Find!
New Member
My Two Cents
I have read through all the posts on here. I understand what everyone is saying about people undercutting there prices. Well, it can't be stopped. Deal with it.
I am a Print and Sign Broker who sell signs and print cheap one or two products per line only. It makes my phone ring. I have no choice. Its true you can't sell a set of Magnets for $95 in some markets. I can't here and expect to eat. Yeah I might sell one or two a month but thats not going to pay my mortgage or feed my kids. I offer two choices cheap garbage and more expensive quality. I also do Artwork I charge for that. Those customers who want cheap turn-key garbage art can get it. I sell them cheap product with garbage art, others are willing to pay for good art. I sell them High Quality product with Good Artwork.
Both customers get what they want. Do I worry about those who are undercutting the market on product NO! They won't make there bills at the end of the month eventually. You can't keep selling super cheap on everything and expect to stay ahead. If you need to sell cheap discount one or two products not the whole line of products.
The answer to those of you who are nervous why worry. I don't sell Neon, LCD, or Sandblasted. I don't want to and don't have any desire to get involved in it.
Make friends with people like me. I am out there hunting down the work. I have sales people actively meeting with hundreds of clients a month. Give me cheap products that we both know don't cost much to make and I will handshake you over to the big jobs you want. I will give you access to cheap printing in return. When I find the big sandblasted job or Neon etc.. Guess who I am going to call and say "I need you to talk to this client of mine".
Don't steal my clients and don't give away artwork. Treat me with respect and I will do the same.
I have read through all the posts on here. I understand what everyone is saying about people undercutting there prices. Well, it can't be stopped. Deal with it.
I am a Print and Sign Broker who sell signs and print cheap one or two products per line only. It makes my phone ring. I have no choice. Its true you can't sell a set of Magnets for $95 in some markets. I can't here and expect to eat. Yeah I might sell one or two a month but thats not going to pay my mortgage or feed my kids. I offer two choices cheap garbage and more expensive quality. I also do Artwork I charge for that. Those customers who want cheap turn-key garbage art can get it. I sell them cheap product with garbage art, others are willing to pay for good art. I sell them High Quality product with Good Artwork.
Both customers get what they want. Do I worry about those who are undercutting the market on product NO! They won't make there bills at the end of the month eventually. You can't keep selling super cheap on everything and expect to stay ahead. If you need to sell cheap discount one or two products not the whole line of products.
The answer to those of you who are nervous why worry. I don't sell Neon, LCD, or Sandblasted. I don't want to and don't have any desire to get involved in it.
Make friends with people like me. I am out there hunting down the work. I have sales people actively meeting with hundreds of clients a month. Give me cheap products that we both know don't cost much to make and I will handshake you over to the big jobs you want. I will give you access to cheap printing in return. When I find the big sandblasted job or Neon etc.. Guess who I am going to call and say "I need you to talk to this client of mine".
Don't steal my clients and don't give away artwork. Treat me with respect and I will do the same.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
After one develops the reputation for doing everything cheap….. how can you honestly tell the next guy…. yours is gonna cost more ??
Instead of helping to improve the industry, you’re just going to use the attitude that you are helpless to better educate your clientele and just hand out crap for next to nothing and feed your kids on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
Why not feed them good wholesome food that will help them grow into young intelligent human beings with a mind worth nourishing ?? You can’t do that unless you educate them and that’s exactly what you have to do with your customers or you’ll continue to be a lowballer.
Don’t think for a minute these lowballers you think are gonna shrivel up and die will do so. There are so many of them out there now, you can’t get away from them….. and you’re in with them. You’re actually admitting you use the very same marketing plan and have hundreds of leads on this stuff with your sales force. Why do you waste your time on non-paying jobs ?? You say you have some art paying customers….. why not cultivate that kinda following and start feeding your kids better and giving them some hope ??
Instead of helping to improve the industry, you’re just going to use the attitude that you are helpless to better educate your clientele and just hand out crap for next to nothing and feed your kids on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
Why not feed them good wholesome food that will help them grow into young intelligent human beings with a mind worth nourishing ?? You can’t do that unless you educate them and that’s exactly what you have to do with your customers or you’ll continue to be a lowballer.
Don’t think for a minute these lowballers you think are gonna shrivel up and die will do so. There are so many of them out there now, you can’t get away from them….. and you’re in with them. You’re actually admitting you use the very same marketing plan and have hundreds of leads on this stuff with your sales force. Why do you waste your time on non-paying jobs ?? You say you have some art paying customers….. why not cultivate that kinda following and start feeding your kids better and giving them some hope ??
Colin
New Member
I was just thinking on how this parallels what has happened in the photography world. It has become very difficult to earn a living as a photographer now because of the way digital photography (in consort with computers), has opened it up to the masses. I was out taking some pictures today and spoke with a guy with a $9000.00 camera who just does it as a hobby now after trying to make a living at it.
So I imagine that photographers have it worse than us sign people. Yes, there are a few people who will pay the big bucks for that highly skilled & talented photographer for their wedding day, but the masses of average photographers are probably having this very conversation over on their own forums.
But, does the highly skilled & talented photographer also stoop to doing junk work? I don't think so.
Anyways, just some random thoughts.
So I imagine that photographers have it worse than us sign people. Yes, there are a few people who will pay the big bucks for that highly skilled & talented photographer for their wedding day, but the masses of average photographers are probably having this very conversation over on their own forums.
But, does the highly skilled & talented photographer also stoop to doing junk work? I don't think so.
Anyways, just some random thoughts.
fmg
New Member
There is a photographer in my town who went Digital a few years ago.He has been slow with work and guess what he is now promoting in doing....Vehicle wraps!
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Depends on what that photographer terms "junk work". I know some that had to stoop to children's photos, they would certainly consider that "junk" type work.
One person's junk doesn't mean that it's junk to another. There is another thread going on over here about how bad a vehicle advertising job was done. You, they, I might find it not that great, other people might. It might have been what the client wanted. They might have been told otherwise and the client still wanted it the way that they wanted it(I've known some like that). We don't know the particulars of what went on behind the scenes.
For whatever reason, clients also may what more of the cheap option depending on what their needs are, both budget or what use the product goes to(maybe promotional). I don't believe in limiting options, I may not be as cheap as the store down the road, but if they want my cheapest option, I'll do my cheapest option. Then when they want something good(and I can charge a high premium for), I'll be the first one that's on their list and one that they already have experience with, not the cheapo place down the road. Sometimes you just have to play the game.
Locals Find!
New Member
I don't DO EVERYTHING CHEAP! I do one or two products Cheap. I sell 1 color 1 sided Coroplast cheap w/ Spider Stakes. I sell 4 color 2 sided Direct print Coroplast Cheap. I sell some business cards cheap and some small postcards cheap. Why?? Because, the internet has tons of people selling those same things cheap. Why should I let all my customers go to the internet send that money to other States and take it out of my Local Economy?? I make my phone ring and convert customers to the real money makers. I am not wasting my time on low paying jobs. I use them as my marketing. I don't have to run huge ads. They call for the cheap and leave with the good more often than not. However, if someone is looking for a throw away sign why should it cost $40?? and outlive the event? Don't dilute yourself that a piece of coroplast should last 7 years or a vehicle wrap should last more than 5. There is no point in making that good of a product. Wake up. Why would you want someones coroplast sign being out in the marketplace that long? Why would you want to make a wrap that will outlive the life of the car ?? What reason would the customer ever have to come back to you if you do.
The customers that buy that junk are going to buy it whether or not I sell it too them. They don't want to pay. They aren't going to pay. I do educate my customers but, at the end of the day I don't argue with them. I don't insult them by saying I don't want your business.
I sell them exactly what they want and you know what?? 60% of them come back and buy the better product they should have the next time around. Because, I told them upfront exactly what I was giving them.
As for the printing well Vista Print and others ruined that Market. I give my customers cheap good quality print and they come back for the expensive posters, brochures, etc... that are full Retail.
I don't attempt to lowball site signs, or Nice Digitally printed vinyl w/ laminate on coroplast or aluminum for Real Estate signs or a Site Sign.
There are always going to be those who want cheap. What I am saying is draw the line on what your willing to sell cheap that we know is cheap which is unlaminated 4 mil coroplast. Hold the line on everything else don't budge. I know what the coroplast sheets costs I have the sign supply accounts for purchasing. So don't try and BS me that a 18 x 24 4mm coroplast costs $3.00 for the blank when we both know there less than a buck. That the print averages way less than a buck a sq. ft. with labor.
If you do that your phone will ring and you will get work. If you provide quality Artwork you will always win in the long haul over any lowballer that can't do artwork.
Cheap coroplast signs equals greater profit. Cheap for me to make but the value is there for most customers. For the others.... I would not want to sell one for only a $3 profit when I can spend the same amount of time getting a $20 profit.
Locals Find!
New Member
That's great if you can get it. However, I am not going to be able to get $20 each for 100 1 color 1 sided coroplast signs that are going to go on empty lots or on every street corner in town. Its not going to happen. You will never convince someone buying 100 to pay $2000.00 for some throw-away signs.
Can I get $20 for a single sign HELL YEAH! When I get a customer that wants a single yeah he knows he is going to have to pay. He accepts that fact and if he is delusional well I fix that. I would rather make $3.00 x 100. Than $17 x 1.
SignManiac
New Member
Advertising in general has become a commodity with little value. Even the billboard companies have slashed their prices to keep their boards covered. The sign industry as a whole is dominated by lowballers and the bar has been set. It will be almost impossible to reverse this trend. I would have to think twice about wanting to be in this business today based on what I see on a day to day basis. The only thing that could possibly force a change is the trash that passes for signs today is legislation that outlaws/bans the crap that's become a blight on our towns/cities/communities. The day that happens, you would see about 75% of all sign companies shut their doors. I know, it's just a fantasy but it sure would be nice.
I've learned one thing over the course of my career, most clients are indeed ignorant with regard to advertising and graphics. They can't be expected to be experts in our field, they are supposed experts in their own business and naturally rely on our expertise to help them with their signs/graphics needs. I go to other professionals out of my field with the expectation that they are going to represent me in the best way possible, and it's not about price with me, it's about professional quality services/work. This is what I sell my clients.
I sell all of my high end work by example of what I can do for them and how their company can/will benefit by having/using a professionally designed brand/image.
They don't walk into my shop and ask for the most expensive sign I have, I have to show them what I have to offer. The easy way out would be to sell them the $75.00 4'x8' 4mil coro sign with three lines of black helvetica. Sure, it's an easy buck, take the money and run. But, with a little effort and a half hour of my time, I can sell them a $1,000 or more 4'x8' in some cases.
The reason we have lowballers in this industry is because they have absolutely nothing else to offer except low price if they want to make anything at all. Lowballer's have been around the sign industry forever and will never go away, they're like cockroaches, you can't kill them, they just keep on coming back.
The only thing any of us can do is raise our game, be better than the rest and you can indeed get the clients who are sensible enough to listen to reason and truly care about the image their company projects. These are the customers you want to please and invest your time in.
We all have one freedom and that's the freedom of choice. We can chose to be the $3.00 Coro Kings and Queens, or the provider of quality made custom work to those with discerning taste. I don't focus on snipe signs, I specialize in signs that have little competition. It's a simple choice that each of us are allowed to make.
This pricing debate will still be going on fifty years from now. The sign profession is like the wild west. A free for all, anybody can buy into the game. America is still a free country and everybody is looking for the easy buck. The sign business is just that, an easy buck, and you will never get rich just making a buck.
I've learned one thing over the course of my career, most clients are indeed ignorant with regard to advertising and graphics. They can't be expected to be experts in our field, they are supposed experts in their own business and naturally rely on our expertise to help them with their signs/graphics needs. I go to other professionals out of my field with the expectation that they are going to represent me in the best way possible, and it's not about price with me, it's about professional quality services/work. This is what I sell my clients.
I sell all of my high end work by example of what I can do for them and how their company can/will benefit by having/using a professionally designed brand/image.
They don't walk into my shop and ask for the most expensive sign I have, I have to show them what I have to offer. The easy way out would be to sell them the $75.00 4'x8' 4mil coro sign with three lines of black helvetica. Sure, it's an easy buck, take the money and run. But, with a little effort and a half hour of my time, I can sell them a $1,000 or more 4'x8' in some cases.
The reason we have lowballers in this industry is because they have absolutely nothing else to offer except low price if they want to make anything at all. Lowballer's have been around the sign industry forever and will never go away, they're like cockroaches, you can't kill them, they just keep on coming back.
The only thing any of us can do is raise our game, be better than the rest and you can indeed get the clients who are sensible enough to listen to reason and truly care about the image their company projects. These are the customers you want to please and invest your time in.
We all have one freedom and that's the freedom of choice. We can chose to be the $3.00 Coro Kings and Queens, or the provider of quality made custom work to those with discerning taste. I don't focus on snipe signs, I specialize in signs that have little competition. It's a simple choice that each of us are allowed to make.
This pricing debate will still be going on fifty years from now. The sign profession is like the wild west. A free for all, anybody can buy into the game. America is still a free country and everybody is looking for the easy buck. The sign business is just that, an easy buck, and you will never get rich just making a buck.
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Gino
Premium Subscriber
Ya know Adtech………………
You talk just like a typical broker. You have all the excuses why you can’t get top buck for your wares and all the reasons why you have to undercharge for everything.
I was trying to be nice to you in my first post, but you got all bent out of shape and accused me of saying things, I didn’t even refer to, let alone say. Putting words in other peoples’ mounts is quite childish and I for one don’t appreciate it. If you’re going to quote me….. quote me correctly or go get bent.
You don’t seem to understand the sign business. You only know statistics and only the statistics you want to acknowledge. I can produce an 18” x 24” double sided for less than 80¢, but I generally get anywhere from $20.00 up to $45.00 each for them in small quantities. Once I get to 100 pieces and can drop the price down, but you forget one thing…… at our shop, we produce everything in-house and I have total authority over quality, price and turnaround. I schedule things, I get supplies here on time, I quote my customers, I close the deals and I take the money home. The only thing you do is look for work and undersell your competition, whether it be from the internet or a guy down the street.
What can you produce with your own hands ?? Huh, I didn’t hear you ??
Is there anything wrong with the way you do it ?? NOPE, not at all. It’s just, you have no control over anything and still want to compete and can’t, so you compete by price alone and then justifying why you’re helping ruin the industry. I can say this however….. you only seem to be selling novelties and the kind of things most sign shops don’t bother with. That makes it even harder for you. Try working smarter and not harder and I’m sure you’ll appreciate the better price scale you can achieve.
You talk just like a typical broker. You have all the excuses why you can’t get top buck for your wares and all the reasons why you have to undercharge for everything.
I was trying to be nice to you in my first post, but you got all bent out of shape and accused me of saying things, I didn’t even refer to, let alone say. Putting words in other peoples’ mounts is quite childish and I for one don’t appreciate it. If you’re going to quote me….. quote me correctly or go get bent.
You don’t seem to understand the sign business. You only know statistics and only the statistics you want to acknowledge. I can produce an 18” x 24” double sided for less than 80¢, but I generally get anywhere from $20.00 up to $45.00 each for them in small quantities. Once I get to 100 pieces and can drop the price down, but you forget one thing…… at our shop, we produce everything in-house and I have total authority over quality, price and turnaround. I schedule things, I get supplies here on time, I quote my customers, I close the deals and I take the money home. The only thing you do is look for work and undersell your competition, whether it be from the internet or a guy down the street.
What can you produce with your own hands ?? Huh, I didn’t hear you ??
Is there anything wrong with the way you do it ?? NOPE, not at all. It’s just, you have no control over anything and still want to compete and can’t, so you compete by price alone and then justifying why you’re helping ruin the industry. I can say this however….. you only seem to be selling novelties and the kind of things most sign shops don’t bother with. That makes it even harder for you. Try working smarter and not harder and I’m sure you’ll appreciate the better price scale you can achieve.