SignManiac
New Member
Tomence, at first I wasn't quite sure how to take you. Now I am.
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Too many sign shops!!
- Thread starter Creative_Lance
- Start date
hmmm...
This is both fact and discriminatory/
Round Man... God Bless...
Tomence... have some respect.
I know that Isign and many others can answer this but .... if you do not know what
A pounce is...
A fitch is...
An OHP is...
Terebine is...
Shellac is...
Smalts are...
HDU is...
NC file is...
Passover is...
Fast size, slow size is...
A DXF, 3DM, EPS, DWG, PLT, AI or STL files are...
You are SERIOSLY not in the sign game... merely computer operators that design within a program and print to a sticky substrate.
When you can do a quote to handpaint on Monday, do a dimensional sign on a cnc on Tuesday, Hand carve HDU and gild on Wednesday, install a digital print on DiBond on Thursday, and Airbrush a banner on Friday...
THEN... and ONLY THEN are you in the sign game.
This is my 15th year working for myself and still know Jack$hit.
When you get even CLOSE to me and I know nothing ... then I will listen to what you have to say.
Not before.
Imagine your days with no electricity. Can you survive past 3 months - I can.
Because and ONLY because I am TRULY in the sign game. Doesn't make me special; just willing to absorb all that the craft has to offer. CRAFT... a key word.
Oh Lord blessed be to those like OP and Isign.... they know where it's at... and can survive.
So there.
This is both fact and discriminatory/
Round Man... God Bless...
Tomence... have some respect.
I know that Isign and many others can answer this but .... if you do not know what
A pounce is...
A fitch is...
An OHP is...
Terebine is...
Shellac is...
Smalts are...
HDU is...
NC file is...
Passover is...
Fast size, slow size is...
A DXF, 3DM, EPS, DWG, PLT, AI or STL files are...
You are SERIOSLY not in the sign game... merely computer operators that design within a program and print to a sticky substrate.
When you can do a quote to handpaint on Monday, do a dimensional sign on a cnc on Tuesday, Hand carve HDU and gild on Wednesday, install a digital print on DiBond on Thursday, and Airbrush a banner on Friday...
THEN... and ONLY THEN are you in the sign game.
This is my 15th year working for myself and still know Jack$hit.
When you get even CLOSE to me and I know nothing ... then I will listen to what you have to say.
Not before.
Imagine your days with no electricity. Can you survive past 3 months - I can.
Because and ONLY because I am TRULY in the sign game. Doesn't make me special; just willing to absorb all that the craft has to offer. CRAFT... a key word.
Oh Lord blessed be to those like OP and Isign.... they know where it's at... and can survive.
So there.
johnnyblazedog
New Member
Agree
I could not agree more. I have seen this personally, I work for a BIG offset printer that because of the economy decided to layoff 90% of the employees in my facility, decommission and ship out the 15 litho rotary offset presses that we had. Then decided to buy a Wide Format printer and have the shipping supervisor and lead person run the show, they are GREAT at warehousing and shipping and receiving but had no previous knowledge of the business. Im sure they are not too worried because as someone mentioned earlier they have the corporate backing to cover their @$$E$ when ever things go south. Okay rant over.
I could not agree more. I have seen this personally, I work for a BIG offset printer that because of the economy decided to layoff 90% of the employees in my facility, decommission and ship out the 15 litho rotary offset presses that we had. Then decided to buy a Wide Format printer and have the shipping supervisor and lead person run the show, they are GREAT at warehousing and shipping and receiving but had no previous knowledge of the business. Im sure they are not too worried because as someone mentioned earlier they have the corporate backing to cover their @$$E$ when ever things go south. Okay rant over.
Edserv
New Member
As Rush Limbaugh says, "Come on in, the water's warm!"
Many sign shops in an area could be a great sign (no pun intended) that you're in a great place for this industry. If you know how to market and sell, you should easily gain clients and business. Customer service (over price, in my opinion,) is what gets the long-term revenue increasing fast.
You can build a great business, regardless of what anyone else is doing, by staying the course, providing great service, and trying to keep your clients ROI in-line. (Taking all things into consideration.)
Just be careful not to fall into the "price war" strategy that many sign shops (who don't know how to market or sell) fall into. You don't need to do this!
Good luck!
Chris
Many sign shops in an area could be a great sign (no pun intended) that you're in a great place for this industry. If you know how to market and sell, you should easily gain clients and business. Customer service (over price, in my opinion,) is what gets the long-term revenue increasing fast.
You can build a great business, regardless of what anyone else is doing, by staying the course, providing great service, and trying to keep your clients ROI in-line. (Taking all things into consideration.)
Just be careful not to fall into the "price war" strategy that many sign shops (who don't know how to market or sell) fall into. You don't need to do this!
Good luck!
Chris
decals
New Member
There are 8 shops in my town (and general area). There were 11 until about a year ago. It's kind of funny when you look at what they do:
Shop #1 - vinyl graphics + tanning beds (out of business)
Shop #2 - carved wood + sign servicing + cornhole boards
Shop #3 - screen printing + screen printed coroplast
Shop #4 - some vinyl, but mostly custom "old school" signs and physical lettering
Shop #5 - 4 different locations in 3 years, hasn't realized it's dead yet
Shop #6 - located in an old school, they mainly do embroidery and work for churches.
Shop #7 - sporting goods + trophy shop + lettering? (business for sale)
Shop #8 - two sisters, a cutter, a screen printer, and an embroidery machine. neither understand deadlines.
And now for me, I suppose. I do vintage graphics reproduction and focus mainly on the restoration market for automobiles and motorcycles. I'm probably one of the few people in my state that still do custom stained glass, leafwork, and acid etching. I decided earlier this year to jump into screen printing since the wife is bound and determined to put Shop #7 out of business, and since she's done SP in the past and has a good reputation with multiple repeat purchasers.
Honestly, I love the competition because most of them are bumbling fools. I'm on time, every time. I've more than differentiated myself, while snatching enough low hanging fruit to keep me busy when I want to be. I don't try to be an all-out "one stop", because I would rather do what I do exceptionally well than be a jack of all trades but a master of none.
Shop #1 - vinyl graphics + tanning beds (out of business)
Shop #2 - carved wood + sign servicing + cornhole boards
Shop #3 - screen printing + screen printed coroplast
Shop #4 - some vinyl, but mostly custom "old school" signs and physical lettering
Shop #5 - 4 different locations in 3 years, hasn't realized it's dead yet
Shop #6 - located in an old school, they mainly do embroidery and work for churches.
Shop #7 - sporting goods + trophy shop + lettering? (business for sale)
Shop #8 - two sisters, a cutter, a screen printer, and an embroidery machine. neither understand deadlines.
And now for me, I suppose. I do vintage graphics reproduction and focus mainly on the restoration market for automobiles and motorcycles. I'm probably one of the few people in my state that still do custom stained glass, leafwork, and acid etching. I decided earlier this year to jump into screen printing since the wife is bound and determined to put Shop #7 out of business, and since she's done SP in the past and has a good reputation with multiple repeat purchasers.
Honestly, I love the competition because most of them are bumbling fools. I'm on time, every time. I've more than differentiated myself, while snatching enough low hanging fruit to keep me busy when I want to be. I don't try to be an all-out "one stop", because I would rather do what I do exceptionally well than be a jack of all trades but a master of none.
If Shop #4 moved into Shop #6's location, I would dig that.
binki
New Member
We are not in a small town but across the street from us the print and copy shop did signs (closed 6 months ago), the art store next to him does signs, the 2nd hand store a block away does signs and there are 3 more in walking distance from us. Those are just the ones I know about.
We are in an old downtown area (read antique shops and hair salons) and the re-upholster guy started selling antiques, the art shop that does signs also sells antiques, one barber down the street sells antiques, the retail clothing store down the way stopped using us for wholesale clothing and started doing her own, one of the sign shops started doing screen printing and embroidery on garments.
We don't worry about things we don't control.
We are in an old downtown area (read antique shops and hair salons) and the re-upholster guy started selling antiques, the art shop that does signs also sells antiques, one barber down the street sells antiques, the retail clothing store down the way stopped using us for wholesale clothing and started doing her own, one of the sign shops started doing screen printing and embroidery on garments.
We don't worry about things we don't control.
Colin
New Member
Great thread. I've read every post, and many very good comments have been made (and that last one on this page by andy was great!)
I don't know too many businesses that don't have stiff competition, but it does seem to be particularly saturated for us in the sign business with the myriad levels of "sign shops" out there. It seems that perhaps part of the problem lays in the fact that there is no qualification required, like there is for a plumber, electrician, etc. I mean, how is it that the parasites known as "realtors" have somehow been able to organize themselves enough to establish comfy (read, obscene) rates/formulas for their commissions. Could they really justify being awarded $20,000.00 of your after-tax equity for a little time and some paperwork on a sale of your home if these "policies" weren't in place? (That is slowly changing in the real estate industry, but the way it's been for decades is just offensive).
Even within the free-for-all realm of roofing, those guys make a killing. Why is the sign industry so weak-kneed and driven to bickering over nickles & dimes? Is it because we love what we do, and are willing to be beaten down? Perhaps because it's now "easy". It is easy to buy the equipment and start churning the stuff out at near cost prices. I just read on another forum about a guy who was asking how to get a VersaCAMM into his APARTMENT, and if maybe a 54 would fit instead of the 30! But as Dan A. so astutely pointed out, design matters, and it's up to those who have good to excellent design abilities to set themselves apart from the masses who seem to think that red Brush Script in all caps, on a severe arc, on a blue background looks "great". Not an easy task though...........
And therein lays the problem; the majority of our customers are like a bunch of trained monkeys. Except that, instead of doing tricks for some peanuts, they're trained (as admittedly we all are to varying degrees) to shop in a "retail" fashion.....for the lowest price. And that makes perfect sense; for if I want to buy a Panasonic Plasma model 1234 television, I will indeed shop for the lowest price, because I am going to get the same damned thing no matter where I buy it. This habit spills over, unfortunately, into other areas of purchase where you're not getting the same damned thing. And that's where the person "shopping" for a sign walks into the big pie in the face. I wish I had a dollar for every time I got the phone call which starts with: "How much is a banner?" (or sandwich board, or truck lettering, or boat lettering, etc) - without any details given. Nobody would dream of phoning a car dealer and asking "How much is a car?" Or a builder, and asking: "How much is a house?" But our products have somehow become a commodity, and it boggles my mind how a newspaper can charge $350.00 for a ONE DAY ad, which is then gone, forever; but my customer skrunches up his/her face when I quote the same fee for lettering their vehicle which will last 10 years and get viewed by thousands more! How did the value of our form of advertising get so beaten down, whilst at the same time get so very expensive for us to be in?
I don't know too many businesses that don't have stiff competition, but it does seem to be particularly saturated for us in the sign business with the myriad levels of "sign shops" out there. It seems that perhaps part of the problem lays in the fact that there is no qualification required, like there is for a plumber, electrician, etc. I mean, how is it that the parasites known as "realtors" have somehow been able to organize themselves enough to establish comfy (read, obscene) rates/formulas for their commissions. Could they really justify being awarded $20,000.00 of your after-tax equity for a little time and some paperwork on a sale of your home if these "policies" weren't in place? (That is slowly changing in the real estate industry, but the way it's been for decades is just offensive).
Even within the free-for-all realm of roofing, those guys make a killing. Why is the sign industry so weak-kneed and driven to bickering over nickles & dimes? Is it because we love what we do, and are willing to be beaten down? Perhaps because it's now "easy". It is easy to buy the equipment and start churning the stuff out at near cost prices. I just read on another forum about a guy who was asking how to get a VersaCAMM into his APARTMENT, and if maybe a 54 would fit instead of the 30! But as Dan A. so astutely pointed out, design matters, and it's up to those who have good to excellent design abilities to set themselves apart from the masses who seem to think that red Brush Script in all caps, on a severe arc, on a blue background looks "great". Not an easy task though...........
And therein lays the problem; the majority of our customers are like a bunch of trained monkeys. Except that, instead of doing tricks for some peanuts, they're trained (as admittedly we all are to varying degrees) to shop in a "retail" fashion.....for the lowest price. And that makes perfect sense; for if I want to buy a Panasonic Plasma model 1234 television, I will indeed shop for the lowest price, because I am going to get the same damned thing no matter where I buy it. This habit spills over, unfortunately, into other areas of purchase where you're not getting the same damned thing. And that's where the person "shopping" for a sign walks into the big pie in the face. I wish I had a dollar for every time I got the phone call which starts with: "How much is a banner?" (or sandwich board, or truck lettering, or boat lettering, etc) - without any details given. Nobody would dream of phoning a car dealer and asking "How much is a car?" Or a builder, and asking: "How much is a house?" But our products have somehow become a commodity, and it boggles my mind how a newspaper can charge $350.00 for a ONE DAY ad, which is then gone, forever; but my customer skrunches up his/her face when I quote the same fee for lettering their vehicle which will last 10 years and get viewed by thousands more! How did the value of our form of advertising get so beaten down, whilst at the same time get so very expensive for us to be in?
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bayshorecreations
New Member
I agree! Look at this: http://www.piworld.com/article/sand...-format-printing-segment-two-durst-printers/1
Fatboy
New Member
Very true and you make a good point. Most of these guys go into the trade without the tools like wide format printers etc. This is where I found a big need and are now printing for most of them.
Farmboy
New Member
I don't know how many times I've had customers come in and balk at the price of mags or yard signs because they had just placed an ad in one of the local papers and didn't have the cash to pay. I always ask how much they paid and than tell them what they could have had for the same amount. I usually just get the deer in the head lights stare.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Same conversation, different business. Whatever you are in, you really need to have a niche and charge for that niche as well.
I will say this, I am one of those that most of the people in here tend not to like. The ones that started up in the "shop" area of their house. I have gotten a lot of business, I mean a lot and they are typically the "one off" type of work. Do one or two license plates here, caps, or mugs here and there. I don't do the more traditional signage either that most of y'all seem to be talking about. However, I'll also do the promotional work as well for the small business around here. Ones that want to do the neat giveaways to customers, but don't want to buy 10k of the stuff at a time.
I have 3 different ways of doing something and I'll give them a choice of the 3 different ways, whatever fits their budget. Now don't think I"m saying that on the lowest budget option that I'm trying to undercut the competition, my cheapest option is just the cheapest way I can do something. It'll probably still be a premium, but it'll be on the lower end of the spectrum. I'm a firm believer in choices, maybe I give them too many, I don't know, but I have gotten great word of mouth because of it.
I actually work longer hours then I do with the horses, but I do like to believe that I produce quality work and that I strive for that quality while giving them exactly what they want. Not what they want to settle for out of a choice of 5, but what they want. Now if I only have the ability to do 5 things, then it will be out of 5, but if I can do it 5 ways, I won't tell them 3. I'll take the time to go over the differences, I'll have them feel the difference between them etc.
Just yesterday I delivered 3 license plates to a guy and he was there with 2 of his friends and one of them didn't realize that I was doing totally custom tags. He was looking for one on a truck that he had rebuilt and he was wanting something for it, but didn't like what you could get "store bought" and a bunch of the other places that did "custom" work, had limitations on it. People that I deal with don't like limitations, I try to give them far less(there will always be a limitation at some point), but they do have to pay for that, but in most cases, I'm upfront with that at the get go and they don't have a problem. Communication.
I will say this, I am one of those that most of the people in here tend not to like. The ones that started up in the "shop" area of their house. I have gotten a lot of business, I mean a lot and they are typically the "one off" type of work. Do one or two license plates here, caps, or mugs here and there. I don't do the more traditional signage either that most of y'all seem to be talking about. However, I'll also do the promotional work as well for the small business around here. Ones that want to do the neat giveaways to customers, but don't want to buy 10k of the stuff at a time.
I have 3 different ways of doing something and I'll give them a choice of the 3 different ways, whatever fits their budget. Now don't think I"m saying that on the lowest budget option that I'm trying to undercut the competition, my cheapest option is just the cheapest way I can do something. It'll probably still be a premium, but it'll be on the lower end of the spectrum. I'm a firm believer in choices, maybe I give them too many, I don't know, but I have gotten great word of mouth because of it.
I actually work longer hours then I do with the horses, but I do like to believe that I produce quality work and that I strive for that quality while giving them exactly what they want. Not what they want to settle for out of a choice of 5, but what they want. Now if I only have the ability to do 5 things, then it will be out of 5, but if I can do it 5 ways, I won't tell them 3. I'll take the time to go over the differences, I'll have them feel the difference between them etc.
Just yesterday I delivered 3 license plates to a guy and he was there with 2 of his friends and one of them didn't realize that I was doing totally custom tags. He was looking for one on a truck that he had rebuilt and he was wanting something for it, but didn't like what you could get "store bought" and a bunch of the other places that did "custom" work, had limitations on it. People that I deal with don't like limitations, I try to give them far less(there will always be a limitation at some point), but they do have to pay for that, but in most cases, I'm upfront with that at the get go and they don't have a problem. Communication.
washingtonsignguy
New Member
My Father has spent the last 35 years building a very successful excavation business. He is known in this area as the guy to go to for something done right. Being where he came from, I have a lot of respect for this. The other day i was with him driving by a sign that was spray painted on old plywood it read "Excavating. $40.00hr" and a number. He looked at it and chuckled. (he charges $100.00hr) I asked him if that bugs him. He said No and explained why. There has always been that guy that doesnt know what he is doing undercuts the commpetition. Along with that guy is the customer that always look for him. I have seen this customer, he is needy and overall pissed off that he needs your services. Usually only wasting your time in writing bids for him and then chewing you out cause he found someone cheaper and that you are way to expensive. Or he hires you but is never happy and only spreads bad word of mouth. To me it is important to have those guys around, cause i sure cannot make those customers happy, and I have tried.
I thought this was an interesting point and made me realize that the sign industry isnt alone in this way. But that this was and always will be there in any industry. It is part of business. I never thought it did any good complaining about it. Focus on who you are and be glad that you are where you are and look forward to where you wanna be. I might have resaid a few things, but thought it was a story of interest
I thought this was an interesting point and made me realize that the sign industry isnt alone in this way. But that this was and always will be there in any industry. It is part of business. I never thought it did any good complaining about it. Focus on who you are and be glad that you are where you are and look forward to where you wanna be. I might have resaid a few things, but thought it was a story of interest
Freehandan
New Member
I can relate to the veterans in the business sense around here. Your market is Your personal market. Personal service is the start of my sale. 99% of my customers are word of mouth and/or because they see me spend time in public doing tasks that attract criticizm and/or wonder. There are a lot of fools in the business. Most of them do use clip-art religiously to the point that they can find a price to fit their budget and somebody who can print. Then the only way they can one-up me is to complain about a brushstroke and a drip before I am done. A few people agree with that and then they finance a company based on that. Then they cut throats and starve. I underprice my work just to survive and reclaim the jobs anymore. But signs always leads me to more and different work doing it like the old-school way. Who would have known that the the sign guy could draw charcoal portraits of your family?? They find out many things as I am sketching for them.
My equipment.....-Whatever! But I leave the computer generated market for others.
Every computer can do the same things, for anybody. You can diversify to save your investment by buying more machines to to different things, or do different things as an artist to make you unique so you will always have demand for personal service.
And as far as educating your competition, I learned in Tattooing- It is ALL about drive. Anyone can learn to be a stencil skin-jockey or a vinyl sign cutter, and you can make a Good living at it. But 99% of the time, they don't. Even when you put the tools in their hand.
Fear creates machines which creates fear in competition for fear of not having a competitive machine.
My equipment.....-Whatever! But I leave the computer generated market for others.
Every computer can do the same things, for anybody. You can diversify to save your investment by buying more machines to to different things, or do different things as an artist to make you unique so you will always have demand for personal service.
And as far as educating your competition, I learned in Tattooing- It is ALL about drive. Anyone can learn to be a stencil skin-jockey or a vinyl sign cutter, and you can make a Good living at it. But 99% of the time, they don't. Even when you put the tools in their hand.
Fear creates machines which creates fear in competition for fear of not having a competitive machine.
trakers
New Member
Right on the head. We get this *every day*. "How much is a sign" and "Ballpark price" are two phrases that raise my feathers these day. Always with no explanation of what they want or expect.
But you know what I've found? When someone says "Oh my, I can get that same sign for $xx in xxxx. I say "Well then looks like you should drive the 30 miles to xxxx and get it there. Thanks for stopping by!"
Almost every time they say "Well I'd rather get it from you guys" and end up placing an order. I love a good negotiation, but it does get old after awhile.
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OldPaint
New Member
to be in this busines today requires NO TALENT, NO TRAINING, NO DEDICATION to learn a craft or how to increase your artistic ability. only thing needed is MONEY.........or credit.
tomence is one of them with more money then brains. iam a freind of round man, i-sign, and in the realm of talent out there, these 2 are at the top of the list. so i can have pity for tomance, as he will never know what its like to have that intangible gift true artists have.
tomence is one of them with more money then brains. iam a freind of round man, i-sign, and in the realm of talent out there, these 2 are at the top of the list. so i can have pity for tomance, as he will never know what its like to have that intangible gift true artists have.