Trying to decide between Summa or Versacamm

[FatCat]

Hi all, been reading what great units the Summa DC4, DC4SX and even DC3's are for custom die-cut decals. How do they work for banners, car and truck decals and wraps or partial wraps? I am in the process of shopping around for a printer and have pretty much narrowed it down to a Roland Versacamm or possibly a Summa.

I have read Summa's are great in dusty/dirty environments. *I don't have a clean-room facility, more like a standard warehouse space and I worry about paper dust etc. from our copiers and presses might be a problem for an inkjet unit. I also have heard the Summa's don't need the maintenance that most inkjets do, and can tolerate running infrequently with little to no problems. I can say that we will have certain times of the year where we might not print anything for the whole week or more, and I worry about keeping an inkjet busy enough to keep everything functional.

*My biggest concern on the Summa is cost for consumables. Looking at Summa's website it shows CMYK carts are $169/ea. with spot colors going for roughly $200 ea. They guarantee a min. coverage of 369 sq. ft. per cartridge, so it works out to be roughly .54¢ per square foot PER COLOR. So if I print a full color highly saturated banner at 3x5 and use all 4 colors I can guesstimate roughly $2.00 square foot for "ink" alone plus cost of materials? Is that in line with current summa users?

Would love to hear back from current Summa users on ballpark square foot pricing and PROS/CONS for the machines.

Thanks!

 

[petepaz]

we have a gerber edge(similar to suma but smaller and slower) and versa camms
anyway they both have very usefull applications but i think the versa camm is the better choice
versa you have to laminate but i think you will use less ink compared to foil on the suma
both do print/cut also the foils are not cheap and the spot colors are limited compared to the gerber edge
not sure if i helped you
but i think i would go with the versa camm

 

[PGSigns]

I have a lot of work for the Summa and for what I do the thermal is better. I farm out the banner printing and the big stuff that is better done on a solvent printer. There are places that both shine and you need to make a list of everything you plan to have the printer do and put two colums beside it one with solvent and one with thermal. Put a check that applies what printer would do the best for that and add them up when done. That will tell you what printer is best suited for your work and thats the one to buy. I keep my machine as clean as I can. Dust and dirt are not good for any printer. I wipe mine down a couple of times a week with a Swifter pad. Picks up all the dust off the machine and helps ensure good prints. The Summa has a sticky pad that runs accross the vinyl before the print head and it pics up everything that my efforts miss.
Jimmy

 

[FatCat]

Geiger, do you have any "ballpark" pricing per square foot on full color coverage?

*I would also probably continue to sub my big banners and any wraps out to someone else, but in a pinch if I needed to do one or tow I would like to know what I am up against price-wise.

 

[PGSigns]

If you call Summa the sales folks have a list of price per square foot based on the various materials. They will also send you samples of the prints on the media the offer. One thing you may want to do is send them a file to run a test print based on what you do most. If its full color to put on mags then send them one and see how they look.
Jimmy

 

[dclet]

digital-graphica.com

~

 

[JR's]

Thanks dclet. I am thinking off a summa as well . small shop .paint, cut, vans, cars, and office in one room shop. some times in the winter no jobs for a full week.

 

[Signco Inc]

I have a 3 year old DC4. I was unhappy with the quality of banner prints and never even attempted again. It's a great machine for decals because of the cutting feature. I don't like the fact that there are only certain lengths of material that can be used. (example 54'' roll you can print 48'') The machine will not take a 48'' roll and if you trick the machine you can only print 28'' or so anyway. Their are chips in the foil so you can not order from anyone else. I had defective chip and ruined a large reflective print job I was running. It's nice not to have to laminate. Banding is still an issue. Non perforated material is need for feeding the machine. Sorry so random with the pros and cons. Typing as I think of things. Our company is currently looking to get a uv printer. (Ion/ Agfa) as well as a solvent. At that point I may have a 3 year old DC4 for sale.

 

[FatCat]

Signco, yours was one of the most helpful posts of all and I thank you. I've "heard" a lot of good things about the Summa's just don't see that many out in the wild. I think I finally made up my mind to go with a Versacamm as it seems the best overall value for my money and for my needs.

Now just need to find a good deal on one of those....

 

[smdgrfx]

I have another story. I had a DC3 a while back, along with a Gerber Edge, Mimaki JV3, and HP5500. I got rid of the DC3 after about 8 months. We just didn't use it that much. The Gerber has more spot colors, and the Mimaki printed the big stuff. It did have it's place, but most things fit on the Edge, and the larger were too big for the DC3. Plus, the special vinyl we had to buy...The VersaCamm will definitely be cheaper to operate per sq.ft. If you really still want to do non-laminated decals, you can probably find a used Gerber Edge for under $5k.

 

[ColesCreations]

Cost / sq foot on the Summa is High. We have an old Durachrome (DC1) CMYK printing: 4x as expensive as spot color, due to full coverage on all four foils. Many folks just print CMY to bring the cost down. Foil roll is 4" wide, 100 meters or so long, so easy to figure the cost. (10 sq m or 100 sq ft)

I don't believe in the no lamination, as it's not that strong abrasive-wise, and our customers complained vinyl was too flimsy and too hard to put on. I agree, its easier with lam. It is durable though, but we have not done any wraps, just sides of 18-wheelers without lam.

Also, the print quality on the DC1 does not even start to compare with our Mimaki JV3. It is course, and you can tell where the "pass band" is every 4". The DC4 is better, of course, you have to see for yourself.

As for ink cost on a solvent printer- a lot goes into the waste bucket. I just poured out 2 quarts of ink, which is $600! Did it last time about 6 months ago, so about $100 / month in waste, same if it gets used or not. So if you use the printer once a week- Summa. Several times / week- Solvent. It does not clog from sitting, no problem to leave it for several weeks as long as it has ink in it. The cleaning cycles keep it fresh.

Why a print-and-cut machine? We are very happy with a separate cutter, a Summa T-140 with OPOS. It's about the same amount of work, remove the print, load it into the cutter, hit "send". And- we often use the cutter while printing. No problem printing with the Mimaki and cutting with the Summa T.

Oh- And the laminate is way cheaper / sq ft than the Summa foil!

 

[Rooster]

For a low use solvent inkjet machine I don't think there's a better option than the Mimaki JV-33. I picked one up about a year ago and have been really slow in getting my ass off the couch to go out and sell it (I took a year off work to re-charge the batteries). It will sit idle for a week to up to two weeks before I get a job through the door that requires the printer. I run a quick nozzle check to make sure everything is firing and voilá! Every darn nozzle is ready to go.

I picked it up with a GBC laminator and a Summa S-140T to round out the finishing options I could offer and everything has been kick-ass so far. Now that I'm back in the groove and business is rolling in, it's all just as reliable under heavy use as it was when it sat idle more often than when it was being used.

The thing to check for with any solvent printer is how well the firmware works (the software built into the machine that runs the occasional head clean while the machine sits idle). In this regard Mimaki is the best I've ever seen. My solvent printer is more reliable than any of the aqueous inkjets that I've ever owned in the past (and there were many). Given that solvent printers are supposed to be more prone to clogs and head drying issues, you can color me impressed.

The best part is that even with all the little head cleanings it runs to keep everything up and ready to go is that it hardly uses any ink when it does them. Besides the remnants in the waste jug from the initial ink fill, it has burned through less than $100 worth of ink in a year using the firmware cleans. Far less than I would go through running cleaning cycles on other machines that were supposed to be less prone to clogs.

 

[PSG]

Fat Cat

I have worked with many of the different machines out there, including both you are looking at, and here is some advice I can offer.

1)...Both are excellent machines and if you are looking for a "one size fits all" kind of printer or a "jack of all trades" unit, there are none yet. That being said however, the VersaCamm is the by far one of the closest things to an all in one device and is a strong printer for all around applications and does everything that a printer in that price point does exceptionally well. You will also really like the profitability of this device over the Summa.

2)...I have worked with 3 different kinds of eco-solvent printers in high-volume commercial printing environments, out in the open and never had any issues with paper dust or any other kind of contamination from these environments. These are actually far cleaner environments than most one room sign shops, especially where saws are used.

3)...As far as running an eco-solvent printer frequently to keep it running well, this is true and no real secret. However, I can speak from experience to say that if proper routine maintenance is done to the machine you will stand a much greater chance of shutting it down and coming back a week later and expecting to turn it on and get perfect prints. Rolands do this much better than some of the others, but you are still playing with fire. No, it is more like "Russian Roulet", sooner or later you will lose.

4)...Another secret to getting a machine to fire up right away after sitting idle for a long time is to stick to using OEM ink, aftermarket inks are much more problem prone for long unused durations. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of aftermarket inks (some of them), just not for the extended downtime duration. The bottom line is, don't let it sit if you don't have to, go run some product samples or promo decals for your company on the third day instead of just letting it sit idle. You will always be better off for keeping it active.

5)...After picking up a solvent or eco-solvent printer, most companies find that they end up using their printer alot more than they anticipated and it usually changes how they go about the production of their jobs. This is because they are easy to use, very cost affective and usually save on labor. These printers will often begin to make sales on their own once people start to see your work and products evolve with your new "toy".

Bottom Line:
The VersaCamm is a no brainer for what you are seeking and will give you a very competent and capable device for your needs. The Summa will be limiting, costly and no better for your needs, actually it may be a step in the wrong direction.

Yes, these are my opinions, but they are based on previous experiences.

Joe