Trying to justify the time spent with customers...

[appstro]

About 4 years ago I decided to do signs as well as ebay. Both of the business ideas grew and as of today I do about 60 percent ebay and about 40 percent local sign work. I love doing both however I am noticing something about the local sign work.... It takes alot of time for me to do an estimate, design a sign, get approval from landords, file for permits, do installations and then... literally make $500.00-$700.00 on a sign in profit. The whole process takes 2-3 weeks. I can do $500.00 in my sleep on ebay, literally. I am starting to think I am doing something wrong. My pricing too low for signage? My process wrong? It seems too time consuming to do signs.. I am a one man shop. I cant turn over enough business quickly enough to make decent money doing these types of signs. Anyone have experience with this and have any advice?

 

[letterman7]

Simple - you're not charging enough for your time to do all the things you need to do. And/or not charging enough across the board for your signs. Really not enough info to make any sort of suggestion, but basics first...

 

[appstro]

Well as an example: 6 x 3 foot dibond sign, 3/16 inch thick, corners notched, digital print on oracal 3165 RA, Laminate with Oracal 210, mount to wood side of building 10 feet up, 6 fasteners. Design time 4 hours, installation 2 hours, time with client and city permit BS 3 hours. Total time waiting for responses and landlords etc...2 weeks sometimes. Pricing: Sign 400.00 or so, Design $250.00, Permits $200.00, Install $180.00 =$1030.00 Minus materials and permit $350.00 = $680.00 net including labor and design. This would be a really good job for me normally. Am I not charging enough?

 

[player]

Well you don't get paid for waiting 2 weeks, but charge full time for the leg work. Do nothing as far as leg work or artwork until you have an order. Charge for a site inspection. Charge a big fat fee for the permits.

 

[fresh]

I don't do permits. I mean, I'll fill out the paperwork for them, but I'm not going to the town to file them. We are installing some window lettering and changing a face on a 2x8 lightbox today, the total job was about $1100, my customer did all the permit work on it. Of course it took at least 3 weeks to get through the process which sucks for everyone, but that's life.

Actually, I take that back, I will do permits if the job is big enough, but honestly, I'm not dealing with permitting if the job is less than $5K, and even then, I'm going to charge at least $300 just to file the paperwork for them.

 

[appstro]

I see. I was hoping that maybe you guys could suggest a way to streamline the process so it does not take so much time. Maybe I need to get a standardized pricing list and get a workflow set up for estimating. Maybe hire a retired sign guy to just do estimates and permitting so I can concentrate on production and installs. It really makes me wonder how one man contractors shops get any work done. But then again I have never seen one man contractor shops besides sign guys. Plumbers charge $100.00 for estimates that can be applied toward the job. So do some roofers in the area. Big sign shops locally charge $200.00 for a full site survey and estimating. I am on the bottom though, trying to do it all and it's really not worth the time and effort most times.. Especially if I do the estimate and they never call me back.

 

[Marlene]

if you are doing OK on ebay, why not just do that? the other end of it you can either give up on or charge for the labor to do the leg work, not much else you can do.

 

[Imakesigns]

Ive been fighting this for years. I decided to do what seems to be the overwhelming response here, raise my prices. If I lose a few jobs along the way, it wasn't worth the time I would have spent. build your portfolio, create a pricing structure that works for you and stick with it. I chased cheap work too many times in the past.

 

[appstro]

Thanks guys. I can see that I need to charge more for materials and charge more for permits. Maybe even charge a site survey fee and apply towards job. This will discourage looky loos and wont seem like Im waisting time. Thanks again for all your great responses.

 

[Kwiksigns]

Thanks guys. I can see that I need to charge more for materials and charge more for permits. Maybe even charge a site survey fee and apply towards job. This will discourage looky loos and wont seem like Im waisting time. Thanks again for all your great responses.

you have to actually charge the customer for permits. We charge permits at cost, then anywhere from $300-800 just to get them. They are a pita and sometimes need to make multiple trips to multiple offices. DC, you will spend all day, two days minimum. Then sometimes have to sit in on meetings. then landlord, drawings, etc... Site survey always an extra charge. usually a couple hundred.

 

[Jean Shimp]

I also struggle with this issue of spending too much time on a job and not getting paid for it. We are working on several "solutions". First thing is separating the design time from the sign product and pricing it accordingly. Charge for site visits. Sometimes it takes a long time just to figure out what to make to fit the site! Develop an estimating system. When you are a one or two person operation it's hard to excel in any one product because your time is so fragmented.