Turn $20 into $5000 - is it possible?

[Freehandan]

This is an Excellent thread. There are a couple of contrasting views on here, But a few just come accross bitter and demoting to the paint trade. This is a serious problem.
In my area, I know of two established sign companies with full digital ammo that would seel out for $10,000 in a second. There are sign shops like that on every corner and on every block a house with one in it. I just discouraged a friend of mine who is an artist to NOT invest $10,000 with another friend who wanted to finance about $35,000 on electronic sign equipment. I have been in the industry for 15+ years and he is a web/animation designer looking for a new trade. He reads magazines on the teck and the hype, which leads Many to bankrupcy when the have to deal with the business as a whole. Is that why some are so agressive? Because they are strapped with payments and overhead and must work precisely from 8-6?
I am a True witness that you CAN turn 20$ into 20,000$ ! One job a year can be worth looking at all the expensive vinyl that should be paint for the rest, in Many cases.
I took something I love to do-Paint, And whored it out to the world only to get beat down by hungry humans!! That is the downside. I've painted more letters than dollars and ladies also!
Angst comes with the territory, I guess.
I hope this post is not offensive.

 

[SignManiac]

When I started out thirty six years ago, I was in the right place at the right time. A nineteen year old kid pulling down a grand a day hand lettering five boat transoms on a beautiful Saturday afternoon. It was sick money for back then. I also learned really fast, that my skills and talent would not be given away cheap. I can't remember ever lettering truck doors for less than $300 often much more because I was selling design, not just letters. Hell I routinely got $200 or better for magnetic signs. I won't argue my profit margins were better when it was paint compared to technology. But technology allows one man to turn out ten times the work than can be done by hand.

The problem is not with the technology. The problem is with the people entering the sign business today. They have no knowledge what so ever with regards to running a business professionally and profitably. Their lack of any artistic ability or talent forces them to sell on price only, therefore driving the value down to where it is today, in the toilet.

If I were to pull out the brushes and hand letter a sign today, I would have enough sense to charge accordingly. And I would be able to, I have the talent to design with the best and the skill to sell my work to the right client for what it is truly worth. I am absolutely certain that I could go out and sell a set of hand lettered truck doors for $500 with no problem to the right customer. I could still sell a boat transom easily for $300 or even a thousand if they want 23k gold leaf, hand spun with split drop shades.

A true artist and business man can make money with either tool, I've proven that all of my life. I wish people would get over this paint versus vinyl argument that's been going on since the first Gerber Signmaker III was introduced in 1982. I know hack painters and hack vinyl jockeys, tons of them. But I know few skilled artist and designers. People today need to learn how to sell themselves first, if they want to sell signs, lettering and graphics.

 

[Blazingsun]

I would DEFINATELY challenge that... those that understand the makeup of both the substrate and the paint would be able to remove, and cut back / polish without any "memory" of the sign / paint ever being there.
Cheers

I would have to disagree on this, as I use to Paint Cars for a living ( Im Certfied SIKKENS Painter), and I can remember several times having to remove even the paint of the vehicle to get ride of any trace's of the lettering.. We even had one Van that even after taking it down to bare metal, at a certin angle in the sun light you could still see the lettering...The Pigments it some of these lettering enamels would just eat right into the finish and "Stan" them Permantly.

 

[JR's]

Please send me a list of customers who are willing to pay $350 or more for truck doors. I've been in business 16 years in this location and have yet to find one.

maybe its time to move.

 

[JR's]

I'm reminded I never had a brush break down on me. ).

I had to pout down a lot of good brushes in my time ;-{ :ROFLMAO:

 

[Pat Whatley]

Pat Whately got me thinking...

and that was your biggest mistake.

 

[JR's]

The problem is not with the technology. The problem is with the people entering the sign business today. They have no knowledge what so ever with regards to running a business professionally and profitably. Their lack of any artistic ability or talent forces them to sell on price only, therefore driving the value down to where it is today, in the toilet.

.

JR

 

[JR's]

My point in raising this thread is simply this:
We are in business to make money.

Whilst a $3000 job might sound great... but by the time you take out vinyl, substrate, fixings, blah blah blah... and make $500 profit for 8 hrs work.... $720 for 2 hrs might just seem a little appealing, especially when I (and those like Pat) have been fishing for 6 hrs whilst you are finishing up your so called $3000 job.


Cheers - G

so the problem is thy are not charging enough for the sed $3000. job.

good post Fitch. I don't give my clients the option for paint or vinyl I use the right tool for the job!

JR

 

[petrosgraphics]

we live in a resort/ vacation/ year round, area.... there are plenty of people willing

to pay what ever is nec. to get their boat to look nice... lots of gold leaf, drop shades,

outlines, whatever the want... it can be done right then and there... that the glory of

of it.... you start with a $700.00 transom and end up with a $1,000.00 transom..

hell, the boat is worth several hundred thousand dollars.... and the customer wants

it to look nice..... around here there is good money to be made with the brush..

it is a short season for boating so you grab it while you can.....

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

Well this turned into a interesting thread, I read pros and cons about hand lettering and how much ya can make or not'
I'm in demand here as I've been at it 35 years so that really helps mostly commercial stuff.

WHY ... because vinyl looks like yuk after a few years and print even faster looks worse.

So experienced business people call me, if they are not replacing the truck in less then 3 years they like it to last 10 or other signage.

Another reason they call me because I WENT TO SIGN SCHOOL.

Sure there is alot of designers that can do great signage many better then myself' but not many in here is all, mostly from other areas, lucky me.

About $20 into big bucks was alot easier before vinyl, in my first 10 years then now, but under right conditions, like pinstriping and airbrushing some custom bikes, cars, boats, etc it is real possible. As far as commercial signage well a good fair profit.

I ride my bicycle and sell alot of work now mostly off the net must admit I'm relaxed enjoy riding the bicycle pulling a trailer of goods and equipment doing one job is fine with me, half or full day at a $100 a hour be more but there is alot of cheapo sign shops here, so highly competitive

I have a cheap china cutter since Jan. I get about one a month to use it mostly simple name and hours on door type stuff. gees the cost of doing vinyl work, computer, cutter, roll of vinyl, transfer paper misc. tools not much profit.

Likes hand lettering better and it's in demand if you know how.

 

[artsnletters]

Please send me a list of customers who are willing to pay $350 or more for truck doors. I've been in business 16 years in this location and have yet to find one.

in past years getting $350 for a set of painted doors was a piece of cake....i STILL get $350+ for vinyl doors more often than not. But the days of getting a $500 to $750 complete truck job are long gone. There are still a few customers that want a "custom" job whether paint or vinyl. Even one shot is expensive these days and its not nearly as good...Twenty bucks barely buys a can of some colors....
Tim

 

[chopper]

I am glad that you can get 750 for a set of truck doors....
I really don't know if you are telling the truth about that, but it really doesn't matter, and maybe where you are at the market is high for this type of work... I don't know, and again it doesn't matter... what matters is each of us has our nitch,(or need to find it) be it vinyl, hand lettering, cheap cloro signs, t shirts etc... the best thing to do is excel in that nitch, some maybe good at hand lettering, some at wraps, etc...you need to exploit what you are good at and learn how to market that part of your business that you excel at, I have been doing this for way longer than I would like to admit, and yes I can hand letter in fact I am quite good at it, I do how ever believe that learning hand lettering gave me an advantage in learning layout, over just going directly digital,
and Craig I really don't know what the heck you meant by this statement
Another reason they call me because I WENT TO SIGN SCHOOL. is this something you have on your business card? on your shop sign? maybe in your flier? or in the phone book? or when your customer walks in the door do you say hey I went to sign school? I do not see how this is relevant, some of us learned by becoming an apprentice, some but trial and error, some may have gone to school, but we all have learned in our own ways,
I do not think this matters some will be able to pick it up some will not I think it is just that simple, but hey what do I know after all I am just a sign painter.....I was primarily in the truck lettering business from the beginning, and in my market I could never get 750 for a set of doors, no matter how nice they were, heck never got that for gold leaf work either...
but it is rarely that I even look at the old brushes anymore some times they come out for a stripe job etc... but no one wants it here in this market, so we need to adapt and change with our markets or as mentioned earlier move to where the market is for our desired nitch I would prefer to hand letter, as a believe most who have this skill set would prefer to do..
but it just isn't what the market is allowing here they want cheap and fast and want it to last, I do however believe that this is caused by the weekend warrior / nights and weekends sign person who gives their work away which tends to flood the market with cheap work and cheap designs,
what really needs to change is what the consumer wants if they decide to go back to hand lettered truck doors I will be first in line to fill that need but until that happens I will be here surrounded but digital equipment with my trusty brushes waiting patently to come out and play....
also it is nice to see you back Arlo, hope you are doing well,
//chopper

 

[artsnletters]

I am glad that you can get 750 for a set of truck doors....
I really don't know if you are telling the truth about that, but it really doesn't matter, and maybe where you are at the market is high for this type of work... I don't know, and again it doesn't matter... what matters is each of us has our nitch,(or need to find it) be it vinyl, hand lettering, cheap cloro signs, t shirts etc... the best thing to do is excel in that nitch, some maybe good at hand lettering, some at wraps, etc..

I meant a complete truck lettering AND graphic job, not simply doors. Although doing a set of doors in 23K gold with drop shadows, and multiple outlines was a pretty good job in of itself. Easy to get $500 for that. And i agree with you on the transition between (or from) hand-painted to digital...most start-up digital shops know nothing about prioritizing copy, using different font WEIGHTS for contrast, but most of all letter construction and kerning. Bottom line on the the pricing, i certainly cant get those prices today, not in this F-ed up economy.
Tim

 

[chopper]

artsnletters,
Fitch is the one who stated that he was getting the 750 for the doors, I did not mean this as a dig on anyone just an observation and a comparison of what is going on in my market...sorry if I offended you Tim wasn't meant that way..
//chopper

 

[cdiesel]

The guys above who mentioned people not charging enough for their wares hit the nail on the head. I don't care if you're painting with a brush, cutting vinyl on a plotter, or printing full color, you need to make money. Period.

Sure, there may be less overhead for a painter, but at the same time, I can hit print on three printers and walk away, printing 1000 square feet per hour. All while I'm developing the next client. More overhead, more risk, with the possiblity of a greater reward. Not if you're a knucklehead selling for pennies, but I'd venture to say there are painters out there who do the same thing...

 

[Freehandan]

Here is a van I lettered for a van(!) I blurred the numbers WITH the Computer! (Hey!...I could be.. an Ace! with ..THE Computer!)
I spent $60 on some new 1shot so I wouldn't have any globbs to deal with.
In return for lettering this van I received a 1998 E350 van that I use for work. The guy wanted paint because he owns the van, if someone steals it, they wont get the paint off, and he likes that it shows hand-crafted service and pride. He feels that it makes him and his business look more established and shows a sense of integrity.
The van I received is only worth about a thousand with tlc. But I have been driving it since Feb.
I paint the letters/signs on my own van with a paint that I can wash off, so when I get bored and want to change my market sense..........

 

[Dave Drane]

Here is a van I lettered for a van(!) I blurred the numbers WITH the Computer! (Hey!...I could be.. an Ace! with ..THE Computer!)
I spent $60 on some new 1shot so I wouldn't have any globbs to deal with.
In return for lettering this van I received a 1998 E350 van that I use for work. The guy wanted paint because he owns the van, if someone steals it, they wont get the paint off, and he likes that it shows hand-crafted service and pride. He feels that it makes him and his business look more established and shows a sense of integrity.
The van I received is only worth about a thousand with tlc. But I have been driving it since Feb.
I paint the letters/signs on my own van with a paint that I can wash off, so when I get bored and want to change my market sense..........

Just when I really thought you were up to a standard you go and put that pic up. That job really sucks, and I don't believe that you could do it faster than a computer hack doing it all in Helvetica medium which would look 100% better than that. I was thinking of asking you to do a "step by step" but now I've actually seen your work it doesn't matter.

 

[Freehandan]

Supply, demand and circumstance. You are entitled to your opinion. Either way I am driving arround in a 60$ van that no-one else could get for the price and effort.
Just to let you know about that job- I was also supposed to airbrush some tools on it as well but the guy is on a big vacation.
The guy changed his mind about what He wanted to say in the 'lightbulb' quote as I was painting it, so that is the second stab and not as nice. He decided he wanted to add an extra number as well. All of what your machine couldn't do ON Site. Since then he even had me remove one number. which was visible but i fixed that as I can paint.
Helvetica would look bland and just plain boring and repetative, like 99% of the other undistinguishable vehicles with vinyl on them.
With using no stencil and only 2 guidelines per line of text, I can do both sides in 4-5 hours which includes a drink(no Alcohol here), a snack and multiple glove changes and paint changes while people distracted me. That job in Vinyl would have taken the same if not more time plus materials. To do the graphics would have been even more costly in that way.
Funny, my impressions and posts are based on written words, while others seem to be based on un-knowledgeable and un-informed opinions.

 

[Dave Drane]

Well anyone can tell you that it is uninformed to paint lettering back to front!! You obviously think you are so great that you don't study text. Script is a variation of hand writing and it would be very uncomfortable and un natural to hand write in an arc??

 

[Freehandan]

The containers were done for 500$ each, both sides. I did 2 of them, in two days, all freehand using my brush with color to sketch. I did them in 2002. Supplies cost me about 60$ as well.
Just a note for some who like to nitpick- A hand-painted letter can look as straight and uniform an vinyl, but why? Most of the times they flow better and have life to them. A hand done letter is a human letter. Businesses are opperated by humans. When the industry calls for communistic-ly dimentioned signage, it is available. I never heard of someone not doing business with someone because there sign was a painted one.
There is a stigma of presumptuousness that a perfect image to a social standard means that the people it represents are perfect, and so will the quality of services recieved by this image. Not true, Sir. It would be presumptuous and ignorant to think that. There really is NO standard in these days. It's groups and peers and financiers.
But for the reality of it, vehicles(Also in motion) and signs sit in the outdoors and get crapped on by birds, hit with debris and so on. The colors of most painted jobs will look good longer and hold up better than most vinyl in the same circumstances. Paint chips off as well, cannot be peeled like vinyl and can be touched up by or at the customers request, if someone removes some from the outside of a window. It is not that easy to scrape off if done right.