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Turn $20 into $5000 - is it possible?

chopper

New Member
Chopper what is meant by the statement I went to sign school , yes the market here comes to mind ..very few have even commercial art even much less advertising school of any kind, No offence to craftspeople that have earned the ranks of knowing what a good layout even looks like and many have either taught or been self taught.

Another reason I said that was many people get into this trade because they learned Adobe in high school, got to by a plotter & a PC some software and BAM call them self sign shops. ..and I'm tired of competing with them for the last 25 years and they still not learned.

But in Orlando very few know what advertising signage is suppose to look like although they call them sign shops, really alot of the good signage is made out of town, that is seen in town.
As far as $350 doors this was common before PCs and even $650 per set of doors was common with a outstanding layout color combos, maybe with gold, and still in some markets with a few craftspeople it is very possible, in fact a friend I know does very near that, and does outstanding work that customers are very glad to pay and rehire again and again even in todays economy.
Craig,
now I understand where you are coming from with the "sign school"
as far as competing with people with out "skill" or schooling that is just the way it is it has always been here, even when I was hand lettering, it seemed that all the customer wanted was the lowest price,
I knew a few guys and one was my mentor who could get 5-6 hundred for lettering a set of truck doors, but you would starve to death if that was all he did, and there was no way he could knock them out in 2 hours, these jobs took the better part of a day, if I could command that kind of price I would do it in a heart beat...but it seems those days are gone at least here anyway, maybe they will come back , thanks for explaining ...
//chopper
 

Fitch

New Member
Interesting to see my original post resurface after 4 or so months.

Some interesting comments. Some interesting redirects.

Also interesting is the fact that many have confused hand lettering with design.

Many signwriters get better at layout and design by hand painting - but not all. This has been proven with almost the "it may be handpainted but it's terrible". And maybe those comments have validity. Just because you can paint by hand doesn't automatically make you good.

Possibly start a new thread about design and who can paint and who is better than who.

The intention of this original thread was simply " it just really blows me away that many in the "sign game" choose NOT to add hand painting to their skills".

Now... many are also misguided in the thinking that they need to be able to carry the talents of the craft and signwrite to the highest level. Very untrue. This takes years and years of guidance and mistake after mistake. Truth is the demand is simply not there to enable one to hone their skill to that level anymore.

But computers can draw a template to produce a pounce. Computers can ouput to a printer that can produce an acetate that can be projected onto a wall. Modern technology enabling a lost craft to still exist if even at the simplest level.

The whole point is that hand pinting is a tool - to a large degree an under utilised tool - for many to make incredible nett profits for your business.

A can of paint whether it be $20, $60, or even $100 can go an unimaginable long way in terms of $$$$.

I might add that given the right design, often a simple white framed text with small embellishments on a brick wall can look fantastic in terms of design. It also saves $$$ on frames, substrate, manufacture, installation, etc.

In some areas no doubt - it would also be a way around sign codes as they often no longer include hand painted signs. The people who write the codes are of the younger generation.

Hand painted signs are often difficult to "measure". As an example of "codes" , I ship graphics nationally and have found that the postal service will charge for a width x depth x height. Quite expensive, so I put the graphics in a cylinder as they don't know how to "measure" it and it gets weighed instead and costs 1/3 the measurement way.

As a side note... and a small attempt at humour... I have also never heard of a hand painted or poorly installed letter falling off a building and injuring, maiming or killing someone.

Cheers - G
 

Mosh

New Member
Didn't even read this whole thread...but if I buy $20 of coke and run it all the way from Chile to Kansas City I know it would make $5,757 on $20 so that is pretty close!
 

turbo

New Member
as a newbie here I am a little disappointed that so many members are slamming a true sign artist. I am also a SignPainter of over 25 yrs and have made way more money with my Brushes, Malh Stick and One Shot than any vinyl cutter/printer. It is the inexperienced people in this industry who buy a cutter/printer and think they are a sign artist and have no idea how to price there work. Wrong! Were do you think all of the designs that you steal come from? Sign Painters. Most of my work is repetitive vinyl crap but I do offer Hand Painted Signs, Murals, Chalk Boards etc. And at the end of the day there is a huge profit in hand painted over vinyl. I will start a new post soon and post some of my work for the real sign people to critic. :Canada:
 

chopper

New Member
as a newbie here I am a little disappointed that so many members are slamming a true sign artist. I am also a SignPainter of over 25 yrs and have made way more money with my Brushes, Malh Stick and One Shot than any vinyl cutter/printer. It is the inexperienced people in this industry who buy a cutter/printer and think they are a sign artist and have no idea how to price there work. Wrong! Were do you think all of the designs that you steal come from? Sign Painters. Most of my work is repetitive vinyl crap but I do offer Hand Painted Signs, Murals, Chalk Boards etc. And at the end of the day there is a huge profit in hand painted over vinyl. I will start a new post soon and post some of my work for the real sign people to critic.
Reply With Quote

turbo,
I think using the term "a true sign artist" and freebasin'dan in the same sentience or paragraph is a mistake at best, I for one have a vinyl cutter and a printer, a computer brushes and paints etc...just because I use more than one media as do others to make signs doesn't make us hacks, nor does it mean that we steal others designs from hand painted work, if you can make more money doing hand painted work that is great, but if you are going to act like dan did you will not last long
I am some what inclined to think you might be dan under a new name this thread is kinda fishy....
//chopper
 

iSign

New Member
as a newbie here I am a little disappointed that so many members are slamming a true sign artist. I am also a SignPainter of over 25 yrs and have made way more money with my Brushes, Malh Stick and One Shot than any vinyl cutter/printer. It is the inexperienced people in this industry who buy a cutter/printer and think they are a sign artist and have no idea how to price there work. Wrong! Were do you think all of the designs that you steal come from? Sign Painters. Most of my work is repetitive vinyl crap but I do offer Hand Painted Signs, Murals, Chalk Boards etc. And at the end of the day there is a huge profit in hand painted over vinyl. I will start a new post soon and post some of my work for the real sign people to critic. :Canada:

welcome to signs101 Turbo!, now go back in your hole dumass.. you wanna "show" us something?? show us some original work of YOURS that was stolen... you may paint & you may paint well... but in 10 years on sign forums, virtually every sign painter I've seen who rags on their superiority is a half rate slouch riding the coat tails of a revered trade, in the only phuqing place it is revered anymore... which is within the sign community.. by those very entrepreneur's you are dissing for their having the business savvy to diversify & evolve beyond signpainting.. nope, it's not just inexperienced people buying cutters & plotters, it's knowledgable craftspersons like yourself... except with a little more knowledge.
 

SignosaurusRex

Active Member
turbo,
I think using the term "a true sign artist" and freebasin'dan in the same sentience or paragraph is a mistake at best, I for one have a vinyl cutter and a printer, a computer brushes and paints etc...just because I use more than one media as do others to make signs doesn't make us hacks, nor does it mean that we steal others designs from hand painted work, if you can make more money doing hand painted work that is great, but if you are going to act like dan did you will not last long
I am some what inclined to think you might be dan under a new name this thread is kinda fishy....
//chopper
welcome to signs101 Turbo!, now go back in your hole dumass.. you wanna "show" us something?? show us some original work of YOURS that was stolen... you may paint & you may paint well... but in 10 years on sign forums, virtually every sign painter I've seen who rags on their superiority is a half rate slouch riding the coat tails of a revered trade, in the only phuqing place it is revered anymore... which is within the sign community.. by those very entrepreneur's you are dissing for their having the business savvy to diversify & evolve beyond signpainting.. nope, it's not just inexperienced people buying cutters & plotters, it's knowledgable craftspersons like yourself... except with a little more knowledge.
Did he mention FREEHANDAN? NO!
I'm in no way sticking up for that dumbass nor this guy, but lets not jump to conclusions here and beat this guy just for his poor choice in the use of "steal" in the context of how he chose.
 

chopper

New Member
rex,
maybe I am wrong but he stated that "we" were slamming a true sign artist, now just mabe it is a leap but freehandan in my opinion was the one who was getting ripped on for the things he said.
if you do not agree with me I understand, that he as in Turbo did not mention by name freehandan but he did elude to him...
//chopper
 

SignosaurusRex

Active Member
rex,
maybe I am wrong but he stated that "we" were slamming a true sign artist, now just mabe it is a leap but freehandan in my opinion was the one who was getting ripped on for the things he said.
if you do not agree with me I understand, that he as in Turbo did not mention by name freehandan but he did elude to him...
//chopper

Maybe....maybe not. I thought so too initially but,...........Turbo used "artist" singularly when it should have been plural in another thread. It's possible that he also did so here. Lets just wait and see.
 

astro8

New Member
If anyone thinks they can compete head on with a vinyl cutter or a solvent printer with their paintbrush they're a fool. Sure I'll paint a sign on a brick wall or do a goldleaf job, paint some faux marble ...but I'll charge double what I think it's worth to make it pay or make it go away.

All this 'paint is better than vinyl' talk and all this "true sign artist' crap is just empty talk. A 'true sign artist' that only works with paint, to me, is just someone who hasn't evolved.

I see plenty of 'true sign artists' on here that probably haven't even held a brush or know what a mahlstick is....but they sure know how to design and produce stunning signs.

I remember when the first vinyl cutters hit the sign industry and there were the signshops who embraced the new technology and then there were those who fought it. Unfortunately for the latter, most are now driving buses or selling pantyhose....some are still painting signs but seem to belong to the 'starving artist community'.

If you're 'one out' you can probably (and some do, of course) make a living by just signwriting but I wouldn't want to be on that train in this day and age. Why limit yourself? The world's gone digital. Signwriters have gone the way of ticketwriters. Try getting a job as a ticketwriter! Half the population wouldn't even know what one was.

Neon benders are another that have taken a big hit. Some have adapted to, or incorporated other facets of the industry into their businesses but most will die out.

As for adding hand lettering to your arsenal of tools...how the hell do you propose one do that to get to a level where you can do it proficiently and be profitable? ( I'm not talking FreehanDan quality either..that van he posted was a disgrace)...without a huge commitment in both time and dedication? If you are already running a busy sign business...forget it. I was apprenticed for 4 years and probably improved everyday for the next 20 years...it's not something you just decide 'to do'

The people that spruik about how great paint is vs vinyl appear to me as not the old crowd who have seen our industry change and adapted to it, but more the one's who heve never painted hundreds of menu boards, walls, shopfronts, roofs, factories and vehicles. They seem to romanticise and glorify the whole thing and then tell us about how good it was in the old days. Sure I had some great times painting signs, but when I think about it, the great times came from the people I was working with...not from what we were painting.

I couldn't wait to get my first vinyl cutter followed by cnc routers, engravers, printers and lasers... everything I could possibly get my grubby hands on to make my life easier (as I saw it anyway) and business definitely more profitable...and still doing it now.

Would I advise some young guy or girl who wants to get into the sign game to concentrate on hand lettering? NO WAY! Focus on layout, design/sign/rip software, cnc, led, digital sign systems and do some marketing and business study and you'll have a far brighter future in front of you.

Apologies if this went off track a little from the original post...I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I don't like the jabs that seem to run through this whole site that in some way imply that those that can't hand letter are in some way inferior to those that can.

I used to love signwriting but if I pick up a brush now and start writing a sign with brush and paint that I could produce by digital means, I feel ridiculous and inefficient. I have all the sign making technology at my disposal. Hand lettering to me has become more of a hobby than a way to make serious money.
 

signmeup

New Member
The most perfectly painted Brush Script, all caps on an arc is still crap.

There.... that should be simple enough to understand.
 

SignManiac

New Member
If anyone thinks they can compete head on with a vinyl cutter or a solvent printer with their paintbrush they're a fool. Sure I'll paint a sign on a brick wall or do a goldleaf job, paint some faux marble ...but I'll charge double what I think it's worth to make it pay or make it go away.

All this 'paint is better than vinyl' talk and all this "true sign artist' crap is just empty talk. A 'true sign artist' that only works with paint, to me, is just someone who hasn't evolved.

I see plenty of 'true sign artists' on here that probably haven't even held a brush or know what a mahlstick is....but they sure know how to design and produce stunning signs.

I remember when the first vinyl cutters hit the sign industry and there were the signshops who embraced the new technology and then there were those who fought it. Unfortunately for the latter, most are now driving buses or selling pantyhose....some are still painting signs but seem to belong to the 'starving artist community'.

If you're 'one out' you can probably (and some do, of course) make a living by just signwriting but I wouldn't want to be on that train in this day and age. Why limit yourself? The world's gone digital. Signwriters have gone the way of ticketwriters. Try getting a job as a ticketwriter! Half the population wouldn't even know what one was.

Neon benders are another that have taken a big hit. Some have adapted to, or incorporated other facets of the industry into their businesses but most will die out.

As for adding hand lettering to your arsenal of tools...how the hell do you propose one do that to get to a level where you can do it proficiently and be profitable? ( I'm not talking FreehanDan quality either..that van he posted was a disgrace)...without a huge commitment in both time and dedication? If you are already running a busy sign business...forget it. I was apprenticed for 4 years and probably improved everyday for the next 20 years...it's not something you just decide 'to do'

The people that spruik about how great paint is vs vinyl appear to me as not the old crowd who have seen our industry change and adapted to it, but more the one's who heve never painted hundreds of menu boards, walls, shopfronts, roofs, factories and vehicles. They seem to romanticise and glorify the whole thing and then tell us about how good it was in the old days. Sure I had some great times painting signs, but when I think about it, the great times came from the people I was working with...not from what we were painting.

I couldn't wait to get my first vinyl cutter followed by cnc routers, engravers, printers and lasers... everything I could possibly get my grubby hands on to make my life easier (as I saw it anyway) and business definitely more profitable...and still doing it now.

Would I advise some young guy or girl who wants to get into the sign game to concentrate on hand lettering? NO WAY! Focus on layout, design/sign/rip software, cnc, led, digital sign systems and do some marketing and business study and you'll have a far brighter future in front of you.

Apologies if this went off track a little from the original post...I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I don't like the jabs that seem to run through this whole site that in some way imply that those that can't hand letter are in some way inferior to those that can.

I used to love signwriting but if I pick up a brush now and start writing a sign with brush and paint that I could produce by digital means, I feel ridiculous and inefficient. I have all the sign making technology at my disposal. Hand lettering to me has become more of a hobby than a way to make serious money.

I could not have stated that more perfectly if I tried :thumb:
 

turbo

New Member
WOW. www.xgd.ca
not a whole lot of hand painted but there is some. I will be updating as I am opening another shop in a smaller tourist town that will appreciate the artistry.
All I was saying was profit wise hand painted is for more. How much do you really make on that $2500. truck wrap. I have companies in my city doing wraps for a $1000. Sorry but do the math. $100. profit maybe, but I bet your Accountant will tell you different.
Sorry to offend everybody. I will be quiet now and read. Peace:Canada:
 

HaroldDesign

New Member
I've cheated a couple times. Sound like a few here will have my head for admitting using plotters & vinyl to make the masks for hand-painting jobs that the customer wanted "Perfect like vinyl, but painted".
 

artsnletters

New Member
I've cheated a couple times. Sound like a few here will have my head for admitting using plotters & vinyl to make the masks for hand-painting jobs that the customer wanted "Perfect like vinyl, but painted".

i cheat all the time....i admit it. I cut mask often and do a Mop & Glo job. Cuts time, and increases profit....
heres a cheater done reproduction emulating a vintage late 70 OCIR short a-frame 3 sections long (each 20"x6') for a total of 18' long. I havent got the pics yet for the assembled sign. It was a buddy deal and could have hand lettered it all but saved hours instead. still, its all one shot.
Tim
 

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Fitch

New Member
Each "tool" that you invest in should pay it's own way. Whether that be in profit, time saving, ease of completion, or work flow.

One would not expect someone to invest in a cnc to cut a perfect square when a hand saw and some sandpaper will do the same job in a little more time. But if you need 100 then maybe a cnc farmed out might be more economical in time and effort.

But when you need 100 circles (disks) the whole scenario changes.

The amount $$$ wise or self education that is invested into a "tool" should reap the most advantage where time versus input v output v profit is all taken into consideration.

There are jobs that I sub out digitally. There are jobs that I cut on the plotter, some on the cnc.

As a further example of the "paint" issue, I have become quite dedicated to programming and outputting in 3D. NOT 2D cut out Dibond, but true 3D where there is varying (x), (y) and (z). So a 2 foot true replica of a bunch of grapes - no problem. "But Sir, I have invested a lot of time, education and money into this aspect of signmaking that others have not. THAT'S why I charge so much - because limited people can do it"

Time moves on and purely the progression of time and technology says that things become easier and no longer a "craft" as in the case of hand painting.

But I still am comitted to the original post that hand painting is yet another "tool" where it's use can be utilised to increase not only profits - but also your company image and reputation. Take an example where a split sign has a concrete support between the two panels. Solution - install the panels to the left and right of the concrete support and hand paint the missing piece. Those (your competitors) that CAN'T or choose NOT to paint will limit the clients' options to either left or right of the concrete support. This may be limiting your client's potential exposure.

One thing that does "bug" me is when those that consider themselves in the "sign industry" start offshoot posts deeming one manner superior, inferior, faster, longer lasting, more graphic, more profitable etc etc etc...

Each aspect whether it be paint, vinyl, digital has it's own place. None is necessarily better than the other. Certainly the final product is dependant of the person whose hand the "tool" is in.

The limitations that many place upon themselves is detrimental to the sign industry and often their business. Too often I see a banner installed on a wall between sail track, in 365 day sun. Looks great for 6 months before it starts to fade. Vinyl would most certainly been a better choice, or in the least a mix of digital / vinyl, whereby if an image fades, only the image needs replacing. That's a smart operator doing the right thing by their client.

The sign game is a fickle industry when not always the profits come at the same time as the insurance renewal. As an industry, we need to be experienced - not necessarily proficient at all the tools available to us to undertake all aspects.

Being limited to paint, vinyl, or digital alone does not do this, otherwise you are a "paint, vinyl, or digital specialist".

As Astro8 superbly said "If you're 'one out' you can probably (and some do, of course) make a living by just signwriting but I wouldn't want to be on that train in this day and age. Why limit yourself? The world's gone digital. Signwriters have gone the way of ticketwriters. Try getting a job as a ticketwriter! Half the population wouldn't even know what one was."

Diversification = ability = profit = longevity = job satisfaction.

Who wants a job that is satisfying but doesn't pay the bills?

No one. Any advantage in this game is an advantage. Simple as that - no matter the "tool".

Cheers - G
 

Dave Drane

New Member
I've cheated a couple times. Sound like a few here will have my head for admitting using plotters & vinyl to make the masks for hand-painting jobs that the customer wanted "Perfect like vinyl, but painted".

Harold, I do quite a lot of "cheating" and I guarantee that these signs will outlive any print or vinyl. I use masks when the customer is prepared to pay for it which is quite often. Alo, when using a mask it makes it east to throw in a blend. I use what us guys in Aus. call 2pak paint which is the same as the paint that goes on cars, so I am able to promote that point. here is a sample of a sign done using only mask and paint.:thumb:
 

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Fitch

New Member
Great job Dave in all aspects, layout, design, colour and balance.

All it took was a plotter, some mask, forethought and most of all KNOWHOW.

Cheers - Gregg
 

artsnletters

New Member
Harold, I do quite a lot of "cheating" and I guarantee that these signs will outlive any print or vinyl. I use masks when the customer is prepared to pay for it which is quite often. Alo, when using a mask it makes it east to throw in a blend. I use what us guys in Aus. call 2pak paint which is the same as the paint that goes on cars, so I am able to promote that point. here is a sample of a sign done using only mask and paint.:thumb:

thats a beautiful sign Dave. Love it. I used to do a lot of signs in this method with roller fades too, using 2 or 3 foam rollers and one-shot. Used to blow people away with seamless blended fades on banners in the pre-digital era!
Tim
PS is that a Road King Classic in your avatar? My bagger started out as one!
 
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