US Tariffs, Sigh!

[Zoogee World]

Sorry, I wasn't referencing the "corporate greed" in regards to the Tariffs, meant in General, talking about the companies you're wanting to come back to the US. I'm pretty sure most of them left so that they could produce cheaper goods and make larger profits for share holders, execs, etc., as well as keep the cost as low for the end customer without people complaining too much. But I guess, that's not really what we were talking about.

As for the tariff thing, when you referenced the Energy tariff, it was only brought up after Trump started this whole thing. We didn't do anything / retaliate until he started, there really was no reason to start this with Canada. I can maybe understand his beef with China in regards to bringing jobs back, but Canada isn't stealing the jobs, we're just selling goods that you don't have and it goes both ways. I hope I was able to at least shed some light on my view point, if not, I don't know how else to do so. I do still hope you have a good rest of your day.

 

[Geneva Olson]

Sorry, I wasn't referencing the "corporate greed" in regards to the Tariffs, meant in General, talking about the companies you're wanting to come back to the US. I'm pretty sure most of them left so that they could produce cheaper goods and make larger profits for share holders, execs, etc., as well as keep the cost as low for the end customer without people complaining too much. But I guess, that's not really what we were talking about.

As for the tariff thing, when you referenced the Energy tariff, it was only brought up after Trump started this whole thing. We didn't do anything / retaliate until he started, there really was no reason to start this with Canada. I can maybe understand his beef with China in regards to bringing jobs back, but Canada isn't stealing the jobs, we're just selling goods that you don't have and it goes both ways. I hope I was able to at least shed some light on my view point, if not, I don't know how else to do so. I do still hope you have a good rest of your day.

Well, because you lost your point. Trump did start the whole thing with Canada because he wanted to stop the flow of fentanyl on the Canadian border to stop. His beef IS with CHINA. China is the one who put the labs in Canada. And youre definitely not selling us anything we don't already have. Everything you sell us, we can produce as well.

 

[RabidOne]

I don't agree with you on the demolished and rebuilt scenario. I personally would love to see Detroit back to the way it was in the 70s. I do think they would have to rebuild there. BUT, We do have working manufacturing plants in the US that might need to be expanded. For instance, there are Toyota plants in Mississippi that build certain vehicles.
I'd like to also point out that Texas has the 8th largest economy in the world. We have manufacturing of lumber and paper. We have oil and gas and plastic production. I can see quite a few plants here in Texas actually producing vinyl. We have the facilities to do.

What youre not seeing though is that the US pays higher tariff percentages than other countries pay us. All trump is asking for is reciprocity. that would allow us more money in savings to put toward rebuilding manufacturing plants.

And if anyone is confused on why he's doing it, it's because the US is damn near bankrupt. This isn't a CHOICE as much as it is a necessity.

The US might be close to bankrupt but maybe its just your government not collecting enough taxes?
Top tax rate from 1951-1963: 91%, top tax rate today: 37%
Actual tax rate payed by Elon Musk: 3.27% (2014- 2018), pretty much the same for every insanely rich person.
Uncollected taxes amount to about 600 Billion us per year (2022- 606 biIlion).
All of this info can be found from legitimate sources like the IRS.

 

[Geneva Olson]

The US might be close to bankrupt but maybe its just your government not collecting enough taxes?
Top tax rate from 1951-1963: 91%, top tax rate today: 37%
Actual tax rate payed by Elon Musk: 3.27% (2014- 2018), pretty much the same for every insanely rich person.
Uncollected taxes amount to about 600 Billion us per year (2022- 606 biIlion).
All of this info can be found from legitimate sources like the IRS.

I'm seriously tired of the tax argument. ANYBODY in the US can manipulate their taxes to have a positive outcome for themselves. That's why we hire accountants.


The top 10 percent of income earners pay more than 60 percent of all federal taxes and 76 percent of income taxes, shares that have been increasing over time. The US Treasury's Office of Tax Analysis estimates average federal tax rates, accounting for income, payroll, corporate, and other taxes.

 

[Geneva Olson]

How about this way. Last week, I was paying $100 for a sheet of aluminum. This week it's going to cost me $125. I tell my aluminum distributor, "F*ck you, tell them to eat the cost!" Ya know what he tells me? "Do you want the aluminum or not"
So, let's build some bauxite processing facilities here and start making our own aluminum! Great, dig up some Bauxite. Ok, but there isn't a whole hell of alot around here, Bauxite, Arkansas used to be the largest producer, once they dug it all up, they left town.
Ok, so then lets instead say that we have bauxite, no problem, lets get it process into that sweet sweet american aluminum. One problem, for every 1 ton of aluminum, you get 2-2.5 tons of red mud. Red mud is highly toxic, and has limited applications after further processing. In fact, the US doesn't recognize any useful process for it. So now you have to store toxic sh*t in someone's backyard... Do you want it in your backyard?
I say let china, brazil, and whoever they hell else wants to deal with the processing and storing of the toxic stuff, and let me buy it from them. Don't interject politics into a system that doesn't need it, I just need frigging aluminum.

Geneva, what do you want to do with the aluminum production? (we are not even going to get into aluminum recycling and cans, that's a different racket)

What did we do when inflation hit and the aluminum panels went up because of inflation?
Guess you aren't as concerned with the environment either? you'd rather let china have the toxic sht in their backyard and let them deal with the consequences? not very humanitarian is it? they treat their people like sht anyway...is that what you mean?
Through adversity comes incentives for change. Thats how we progress as a society. Aluminum becomes too costly, we use something else in it's place and a standard is made. 3d printing is a thing.

 

[unclebun]

The big reasons manufacturing was offshored was overregulation (too much red tape, too many restrictions, extra things you have to do compared to third or second world countries) and unions (too high pay, benefits, pension programs, etc. compared to income and compared to said second and third world countries). This was a primary action of the administrations in the past, going back to Clinton and Bush 1. They spoke about a New World Order, and that included moving manufacturing out of the first world countries and into third and second world countries, ostensibly to help raise the standard of living worldwide. The first world countries were supposed to build "service economies". They pushed this from governments, through colleges and business schools, and the Department of Education, despite the fact that anyone with half a brain cell could see it wasn't going to work out in the end. Sure, the guys who pushed it all got rich off the backs of slave labor and the consumers in their own countries, and now they live above the economy and everyone else is left serving them. But a service economy fails since it produces nothing real. We're seeing that now. And what happens is the economic power is freely given away to the countries doing the manufacturing (China, and soon India) until they are able to wield more power than the former world powers, both economically like choosing a different world standard currency than the dollar, and in turn politically.

 

[BigNate]

Curious what you think Trump is lying about. Trump has been in business for how many years now? He's got Trump international. He's very well versed in tariffs and how they work. He's in fact, a big fan of tariffs. From what I understand, Canada wanted to impose an energy tariff on the US of 25%. Trump said, "ok, we will impose a reciprocal tariff on Canada for goods we export to Canada". He's doing the same thing to every country we work trade with. Traditionally the tariffs imposed on us are WAY higher than the tariffs we impose on other countries. So, he's balancing it out. Our jobs have been exported over to other countries and he's trying to bring those jobs back to america. In Texas, we have the piney woods where trees are grown specifically for lumber and paper mills. We don't pay tariffs on those items that are produced here. Trump is right about this: our country has the capacity to build and grow everything we need. So, I'm really confused at what you claim that Trump is lying about.

Canada has had tariffs on U.S.A.'s Dairy for years, depending on the product they vary, but generally are between 200% and 300%... what percentage of the Canadian dairy market do you suppose comes from the U.S.A.? likewise, what percentage of the U.S.A.'s dairy is sold to Canada

(Hint, very very low, basically rounding errors...)

Historically Tariffs have always had a negative effect of trade - to all involved parties.

 

[FlyingSquirrelBrigade]

Curious what you think Trump is lying about. Trump has been in business for how many years now? He's got Trump international. He's very well versed in tariffs and how they work. He's in fact, a big fan of tariffs. From what I understand, Canada wanted to impose an energy tariff on the US of 25%. Trump said, "ok, we will impose a reciprocal tariff on Canada for goods we export to Canada". He's doing the same thing to every country we work trade with. Traditionally the tariffs imposed on us are WAY higher than the tariffs we impose on other countries. So, he's balancing it out. Our jobs have been exported over to other countries and he's trying to bring those jobs back to america. In Texas, we have the piney woods where trees are grown specifically for lumber and paper mills. We don't pay tariffs on those items that are produced here. Trump is right about this: our country has the capacity to build and grow everything we need. So, I'm really confused at what you claim that Trump is lying about.

I believe it was pretty clear in my message. He has claimed Tariffs are paid by exporters as did his press secretary. Tariffs are paid by importers. To say otherwise is a lie or incorrect or false. I'm not sure how you could be confused by that. I also posted the videos of him saying that as well as his secretary.

As for what you understand, you don't understand. Trump signed a trade deal with Canada in 2019 which went into force in 2020. Then in 2024, he decided to unilaterally impose 25% tariffs on all imports from Canada in violation of the deal he signed and had ratified by congress. Ontario (a province in Canada) responded by putting a 25% export tax (not a tariff) on electricity exports to the USA. Trump then responded by doubling his threatened tariffs from 25% to 50%.

 

[FlyingSquirrelBrigade]

Unfortunately he's partially right. There's a few companies I know of in Canada that make hobby CNC's... 1 is paying the 25% Tarrif for their customers... another was, but recently stopped due to all the backlash they got about it. I don't think it's sustainable in the long run for companies to pay the tariff, but... just playing devils advocate and pointing out some companies seem to believe eating a 25% Less and not losing the US customer base is the best move.

Anecdotal instances of exporters willing to reduce their selling price doesn't really change anything. The consumer is paying a tariff that could otherwise have been a discount in a freer trade agreement. Competition among entities drives prices down. Tariffs drive prices up and reduce competition. The majority of Canadian exports is oil anyways and its a commodity that will otherwise be sold at the price other similar commodities will be sold at.

 

[FlyingSquirrelBrigade]

So the issue with Canada isn't about tariffs but it's about the drugs that are flowing. Apparently China set up some labs in Canada and Trump is trying to impose the tariff to stop the flow of fentanyl trafficking coming from Canada.
I'm curious what industries you don't think exist in the US and never have. Can you expand on that?

Again this is another lie being touted by Trump. 99.8% of fentanyl comes into the US through its coastal or southern borders. https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/drug-seizure-statistics . The only reason Trump is paying lip service to this tall tail is the only way he can violate the free trade agreement he signed is under a national security exemption included in the agreement that allows any member nation of the agreement to set aside the agreed upon tariff rates. More Fentanyl comes into Canada from the US than the other way around.

 

[Geneva Olson]

Canada has had tariffs on U.S.A.'s Dairy for years, depending on the product they vary, but generally are between 200% and 300%... what percentage of the Canadian dairy market do you suppose comes from the U.S.A.? likewise, what percentage of the U.S.A.'s dairy is sold to Canada

(Hint, very very low, basically rounding errors...)

Historically Tariffs have always had a negative effect of trade - to all involved parties.

Why would we be sending dairy to canada if they are sending dairy to us? Am I missing something?

 

[Geneva Olson]

Again this is another lie being touted by Trump. 99.8% of fentanyl comes into the US through its coastal or southern borders. https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/drug-seizure-statistics . The only reason Trump is paying lip service to this tall tail is the only way he can violate the free trade agreement he signed is under a national security exemption included in the agreement that allows any member nation of the agreement to set aside the agreed upon tariff rates. More Fentanyl comes into Canada from the US than the other way around.

Question Period Notes

En vertu de la Loi sur l’accès à l’information, le gouvernement publie de façon proactive les notes pour la période des questions préparées par l’institution et en usage lors du dernier jour de séance de juin et de décembre. Les notes pour la période des questions peuvent être partiellement ou...

search.open.canada.ca

then what's this?

your link is from 2021. it has now come out that biden was cooking the books on the border arrest numbers. I would imagine he cooked the books on drug seizures as well.

 

[Geneva Olson]

Anecdotal instances of exporters willing to reduce their selling price doesn't really change anything. The consumer is paying a tariff that could otherwise have been a discount in a freer trade agreement. Competition among entities drives prices down. Tariffs drive prices up and reduce competition. The majority of Canadian exports is oil anyways and its a commodity that will otherwise be sold at the price other similar commodities will be sold at.

The US doesn't need canadian oil. We are sitting on a crap ton of it.

 

[FlyingSquirrelBrigade]

The US doesn't need canadian oil. We are sitting on a crap ton of it.

Again another misconception. The US sits on large deposits of light oil. The US is the largest user of diesel in the world. To get an efficient split of diesel you need heavy oil which the US produces in extremely small quantities. US refineries in the mid west and the gulf coast are setup specifically to use heavy oil to achieve the diesel quantities required by the US. The US imports 4.5 million barrels per day of heavy Canadian crude. If the US didn't need it. They wouldn't import it. Canadian crude has replaced Mayan heavy from Mexico and Venezuelan heavy which used to be delivered to the gulf coast before Mexico's supply dried up and Venezuela was run into the ground by communists. Canada has much larger 3P reserves than the US. The US will be unable to add another 4 million in production and even if it did, it would be exporting light oil because it needs heavy to get enough diesel for its industrial base.

 

[FlyingSquirrelBrigade]

Question Period Notes

En vertu de la Loi sur l’accès à l’information, le gouvernement publie de façon proactive les notes pour la période des questions préparées par l’institution et en usage lors du dernier jour de séance de juin et de décembre. Les notes pour la période des questions peuvent être partiellement ou...

search.open.canada.ca

then what's this?

your link is from 2021. it has now come out that biden was cooking the books on the border arrest numbers. I would imagine he cooked the books on drug seizures as well.

That's a report highlighting Canada's excellent police services that crack down on fentanyl traffickers. It doesn't say anything about exporting fentanyl to the USA because that is something that pretty much just doesn't happen. In fact if you read the link you supplied you would read "
"Despite evidence of domestic production occurring in Canada, there is little to no evidence from either Canadian or U.S. law enforcement that Canadian-produced fentanyl is an increasing threat to the United States.".

 

[Geneva Olson]

Again another misconception. The US sits on large deposits of light oil. The US is the largest user of diesel in the world. To get an efficient split of diesel you need heavy oil which the US produces in extremely small quantities. US refineries in the mid west and the gulf coast are setup specifically to use heavy oil to achieve the diesel quantities required by the US. The US imports 4.5 million barrels per day of heavy Canadian crude. If the US didn't need it. They wouldn't import it. Canadian crude has replaced Mayan heavy from Mexico and Venezuelan heavy which used to be delivered to the gulf coast before Mexico's supply dried up and Venezuela was run into the ground by communists. Canada has much larger 3P reserves than the US. The US will be unable to add another 4 million in production and even if it did, it would be exporting light oil because it needs heavy to get enough diesel for its industrial base.

not a misconception at all. We definitely have different crud oil. HOWEVER, we do sell it to other countries. It's not like we can't use what we are sitting on. your argument is silly.

 

[Geneva Olson]

That's a report highlighting Canada's excellent police services that crack down on fentanyl traffickers. It doesn't say anything about exporting fentanyl to the USA because that is something that pretty much just doesn't happen. In fact if you read the link you supplied you would read "
"Despite evidence of domestic production occurring in Canada, there is little to no evidence from either Canadian or U.S. law enforcement that Canadian-produced fentanyl is an increasing threat to the United States.".

did you look at the date compared to your date?

There's also these articles.

Canadian Police Say They Dismantled Country’s Largest Drug Lab

Federal officers in British Columbia seized drugs and chemical precursors that could produce about 96 million opioid doses, the authorities said.

www.nytimes.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2023/12/24/fentanyl-labs-canada-threat-to-us/

Canadian Mounties bust massive drug 'super lab' linked to transnational organized crime

Canadian police dismantled what they say is the largest, most sophisticated illicit drug “super lab” in the country.

apnews.com

 

[Geneva Olson]

That's a report highlighting Canada's excellent police services that crack down on fentanyl traffickers. It doesn't say anything about exporting fentanyl to the USA because that is something that pretty much just doesn't happen. In fact if you read the link you supplied you would read "
"Despite evidence of domestic production occurring in Canada, there is little to no evidence from either Canadian or U.S. law enforcement that Canadian-produced fentanyl is an increasing threat to the United States.".

do you HONESTLY think that the canadians would admit theres a drug trafficking problem across the border?

 

[FlyingSquirrelBrigade]

not a misconception at all. We definitely have different crud oil. HOWEVER, we do sell it to other countries. It's not like we can't use what we are sitting on. your argument is silly.

It's not silly its well founded as I worked in oil and gas for ten years. Feel free to try to disprove me with something substantial besides "silly" but I am an expert in oil and gas. US is 11th in oil reserves (https://www.worldometers.info/oil/oil-reserves-by-country/). You need more than what you're sitting on as evidenced by the fact you are importing 4 million barrels per day of it. US production has increased dramatically since the advent of multi stage fracturing in tight oil formations but those formations only have light oil and gas in them. That's why the US to this day and for the next 20 years will be importing all the heavy oil they can get their hands on because they can't get it locally and they need it for their refineries.

 

[FlyingSquirrelBrigade]

did you look at the date compared to your date?

There's also these articles.

Canadian Police Say They Dismantled Country’s Largest Drug Lab

Federal officers in British Columbia seized drugs and chemical precursors that could produce about 96 million opioid doses, the authorities said.

www.nytimes.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2023/12/24/fentanyl-labs-canada-threat-to-us/

Canadian Mounties bust massive drug 'super lab' linked to transnational organized crime

Canadian police dismantled what they say is the largest, most sophisticated illicit drug “super lab” in the country.

apnews.com

I provided the real time results of your border patrols seizures so there isn't a date. Its a database that is continuously updated by your government.