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Vehicle installation pricing
- Thread starter WB
- Start date
spooledUP7
New Member
I am a printer and installer so here is my take.
I always write my invoices to my customer as Print (taxed) and Install Labor (non taxed) [CA] to save both of us from paying more to the franchise tax board than required. As a printer I know my target price and my target net profit so the install has to be $XXX. I try to make at least 10-30% margin on labor if I am outsourcing it.
My customers do not want to pay hourly and neither do I. I have stopped asking installers "How much" because it opens a can of worms, and instead I offer the installer a set price. They can either accept it, deny it, or counter it. If I am killing it on a job then I want my installers to also kill it so when I need to ask for a favor they are more likely to accept a leaner job. With the "offer method" the installer will know what they are going to make and then can decide to sub out additional help if there is meat on the bone. No surprises.
My recommendation for installers who are asked by printers "How much?" is to ask your client "Where do you need the installation to be?". It's actually a refreshing question in my opinion. When offered an amount you can either say yes, no, or counter. The fact is installers are usually in low supply, and so the installer usually has more leverage, especially if they are really good. A note on that. I define "really good" as: Quality finish, fast, low mistakes. If I pay top price I want top results.
If the client doesn't know where the install needs to be then they obviously don't know what they are doing and or they are being greedy or don't want to disclose what the job affords. At that point I would say you'll just have to aim high and hope it sticks. Just be aware that customer's like this will most likely hold you accountable for errors, even if it is their fault. While it really isn't the installer's business to know what the job can afford it is still a business relationship and printers need installers and installers need printers so if both parties feel as though they are jointly doing well then everyone should be happy.
I have never held an installer accountable for reprinting any panels due to their mistake. Likewise I have never been charged for replacing a panel due to my mistake. [HASHTAG]#symbioticrelationship[/HASHTAG]
Likewise, if an installer asks me "how much to print" I want to know where I need to be based on the vehicle. A simple "Can you do it for $X.XX sqrft" goes a long way in my book. I would then respond first with the actual square feet printed and then the total. If I am profitable within my margins then I do it. If it's too close to break even then I counter or deny, or lose the job. Simple.
[HASHTAG]#installer[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG]#installpricing[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG]#howmuch[/HASHTAG]
I always write my invoices to my customer as Print (taxed) and Install Labor (non taxed) [CA] to save both of us from paying more to the franchise tax board than required. As a printer I know my target price and my target net profit so the install has to be $XXX. I try to make at least 10-30% margin on labor if I am outsourcing it.
My customers do not want to pay hourly and neither do I. I have stopped asking installers "How much" because it opens a can of worms, and instead I offer the installer a set price. They can either accept it, deny it, or counter it. If I am killing it on a job then I want my installers to also kill it so when I need to ask for a favor they are more likely to accept a leaner job. With the "offer method" the installer will know what they are going to make and then can decide to sub out additional help if there is meat on the bone. No surprises.
My recommendation for installers who are asked by printers "How much?" is to ask your client "Where do you need the installation to be?". It's actually a refreshing question in my opinion. When offered an amount you can either say yes, no, or counter. The fact is installers are usually in low supply, and so the installer usually has more leverage, especially if they are really good. A note on that. I define "really good" as: Quality finish, fast, low mistakes. If I pay top price I want top results.
If the client doesn't know where the install needs to be then they obviously don't know what they are doing and or they are being greedy or don't want to disclose what the job affords. At that point I would say you'll just have to aim high and hope it sticks. Just be aware that customer's like this will most likely hold you accountable for errors, even if it is their fault. While it really isn't the installer's business to know what the job can afford it is still a business relationship and printers need installers and installers need printers so if both parties feel as though they are jointly doing well then everyone should be happy.
I have never held an installer accountable for reprinting any panels due to their mistake. Likewise I have never been charged for replacing a panel due to my mistake. [HASHTAG]#symbioticrelationship[/HASHTAG]
Likewise, if an installer asks me "how much to print" I want to know where I need to be based on the vehicle. A simple "Can you do it for $X.XX sqrft" goes a long way in my book. I would then respond first with the actual square feet printed and then the total. If I am profitable within my margins then I do it. If it's too close to break even then I counter or deny, or lose the job. Simple.
[HASHTAG]#installer[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG]#installpricing[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG]#howmuch[/HASHTAG]
equippaint
Active Member
You better be careful with that. Many states you have to tax the entire thing. Labor by itself is not always taxed but if you have $.01 in materials in it than that labor becomes taxable. If you write out 2 separate invoices, 1 materials and 1 labor to try and skirt charging tax you will likely be charged with tax evasion if you ever get caught or audited. What is the point of risking your own money to save some person you have no ties with a few dollars?
Here in Cali, you charge sales tax on the material portion of a job. Design/set-up and installation is considered a "service", so its not taxed. The assumes it is collecting it on all the other facets of a project or transaction.
I've seen and heard about some ridiculously obvious evasion schemes folks employ. I'm not sure exactly who they think they are screwing other their own kid's educations, community improvements, etc.
ColorCrest
All around shop helper.
Yes, but as already mentioned, not in CA.
In California, installation labor service is specifically excluded from the measure of the tax per Regulation 1546.
Vehicle graphics is an interesting but easy test of the rule. From the print shop perspective, the print material is not fabricated in place (on the vehicle initially) and the vehicle in not necessarily without a covering to begin with, therefore exempt. However, vehicle graphics are taxable from a new car dealer because the graphics are an integral part of a new fabrication of the new car. The dealer should not exclude the graphic installation cost from the price of the new car.
ColorCrest
All around shop helper.
Amen.
ColorCrest
All around shop helper.
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
My motto is tax it all.. it aint my $$. If they don't want to pay tax then cough up a form. I'm not going to be held responsible for something I didnt tax so err on the side of the state wants their dang money.
I wish more printers would shoot price first... I do alot of subbed installs and love when a company says here is XYZ we'll pay XXX amount, you accept? If it's a fair price I accept and not negotiate. Your right, they know where they need to be to be happy, tell me where I need to be and I'll let you know if were good.
I charge between $2-$250 per sq. ft for storefront perf or box truck wraps and travel around the state doing them. Rarely do I mess up something and on the rare occasion, the printer covered it... happens to anyone.
ColorCrest
All around shop helper.
Unfortunately, the motto of too many.
SightLine
║▌║█║▌│║▌║▌█
If your state does not consider humans to be a taxable product then you would certainly benefit by not charging tax on labor (install, design time). Fortunately here in SC straight labor is not taxable so we only charge sales tax on the actual physical product. A few years back we did get audited too and passed just fine except for "use tax" which was stuff we bought online for company use. Here in SC you are supposed to report any online or other purchases made where you were not charged sales tax and report that on your tax return and pay sales tax on it then. Amusingly I asked the auditor if she reports use tax or if anyone really does and she said no, not really. lol
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
Texas charges sales tax on anything. If your making repairs or improvements to property then it's taxable. It's just some of the benefits of not having income tax. That and paying about 4% property tax a year.
Kentucky Wraps
Kentucky Wraps
LOL "own kid's educations, community improvements."
Some people educate their own offspring and the vast majority of local taxes that "improve community" are sucked up by government employees and unions inefficiently handling projects.
I'm not too concerned about government getting it's "fair share" of the value I generate...it gets PLENTY....city, county, state, federal....
Sorry, I have this knee jerk reaction when people talk about all the good our taxes do. Especially "community" and "education". Last I checked, the money spent on public education was right along with the rest of "efficient" government.
Man, I'm sorry, it must be Monday.
equippaint
Active Member
There are good things done with our taxes and the majority of government workers are good hard working people, no different than anyone else. I don't understand why so many people treat people as if they are the enemy because they work in the government . The workers do not make the rules. Politicians screw much of any good system up, lawyers finish off the scraps. Just because some of the system is flawed doesn't mean that it all is or that we should just give up on it altogether. I personally got a good education at public school and a full state scholarship for college. Its all about what you put into it and that starts with the students and parents. Attacking them does no good for our country and its future.
Gino, didn't you mention that you letter police cars? Did that project go well or was it inefficient too? Correct me if I am wrong but that is also put out for competitive bid and generally lowest and best gets the job. Complete with specific specs on materials, placement, warranty etc. I believe you would agree that they cover their bases much better than any other private company that walks through the door.
Gino, didn't you mention that you letter police cars? Did that project go well or was it inefficient too? Correct me if I am wrong but that is also put out for competitive bid and generally lowest and best gets the job. Complete with specific specs on materials, placement, warranty etc. I believe you would agree that they cover their bases much better than any other private company that walks through the door.
spooledUP7
New Member
You make a good point, and I have done my homework. I play within the rules, and I am offering two separate products by clearly separating them both at market value from the get go. There is no need to give the government more money than they have a right to so long as the rules define it as such. If you want to, be my guest. I do offer other products which included labor as taxable when marketing and selling the product as a whole. In vehicle and sign applications such as installation of a sign vs manufacturing of a sign I separate the two since they are from the start lined out as two separate services. You must have a defined service/product prior to selling in order to define the use tax vs labor. All my customers have the option to purchase the product or service separately. The two are not mutually bound to the order. Likewise I would happily install some other company's print or sign at my current labor rate. Of course I would take in consideration the final price of the service if the supplied product was inaccurate to the substrate, difficult to get a rework, and or the materials were more difficult to use than my product. Again, all within the up and up. I am in no way interested in cheating, I'm just not interested in collecting more than I need to. Besides, CA just pisses it all away. If only the city of Irvine could run the state then I would feel differently.
spooledUP7
New Member
Makes perfect sense. In my state this isn't the way we do it. I would prefer it the Texan way to be honest.
Yes, just another fact free Monday round your parts. Responses like yours illustrate exactly why we shouldn't discuss anything of a factual or political nature.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Why, because hardly anyone agrees with your point of view ?? Nothing illustrated on his part..... but complete honest truth.
There is more money put into marble floors, chandeliers, ample parking and loading and unloading of students, not to mention enough busses to hold every last kid in that school, in case of emergency. Not a red cent at this point.... goes to books, education or decent teachers. In my area alone, they are divvying up the schools and grades and spending so much money revamping schools built within the last 10 or so years, it ain't even funny. They just built a new school close to where I live. It looks like a prison. If the kids wonder off the grounds, there's a gun range about 1/2 mile away. That'll be interesting come warm weather.Whose fault will that be ?? Oops, let's spend another 3.7 mil on where to plop a school. This looks good, real estate is low. Wonder why ??
Try getting off your high horse and either participating or YOU keep the politics outta it. 
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
Why, because hardly anyone agrees with your point of view ?? Nothing illustrated on his part..... but complete honest truth.
There is more money put into marble floors, chandeliers, ample parking and loading and unloading of students, not to mention enough busses to hold every last kid in that school, in case of emergency. Not a red cent at this point.... goes to books, education or decent teachers. In my area alone, they are divvying up the schools and grades and spending so much money revamping schools built within the last 10 or so years, it ain't even funny. They just built a new school close to where I live. It looks like a prison. If the kids wonder off the grounds, there's a gun range about 1/2 mile away. That'll be interesting come warm weather.Whose fault will that be ?? Oops, let's spend another 3.7 mil on where to plop a school. This looks good, real estate is low. Wonder why ??
Try getting off your high horse and either participating or YOU keep the politics outta it.
Ugh, our town passed a bond a few years ago to replace almost every school building adding more taxes to our yearly property bill. Lipstick on an ugly pig... But hey, the administration got their own neasts feathered