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Video card questions

David Wright

New Member
Beyond frame rates, game performance etc. what do video cards do.
I mean they all have maximum resolution sizes, and color depth seems the same on all so what am I missing by not getting a higher end card.

I just purchased a used LG 24' monitor and it has a beautiful display. I am using the DVI output with 1900 x 1200 resolution. Looks nice. If I had a card with a HDMI output would it be noticeably better? Do colors get better and fonts even crisper with a better card?

Right now the system I use is dual core with Windows XP and the video card is an Nvidia Geforce 5400 with 256 ram.
 

Maxphobia

New Member
well video cards well higher end cards have their own ram like say the highest one I was able to find has 2.5 gigs of self ram and it sells for about 1300 I believe they also have their own custom over clocking or the ability to be SLI or duel carded meaning you can pair it with another card if you have a duel card MB and such.

Best to know just what your needing your card for...then shop around new egg usually always has the better deal though I do know tiger direct has some good deals from time to time. just knoe what kind u need rather it be apg or pci or pci-e


I just got myself a new card upgraded from a 512 to a gig nivida....can't remember the number 210 PNY DDR2 I thnk.
 

Wes Phifer

New Member
That is the answer I always get. Everyone can talk about specs but does it really help for design? Is it faster (use less computer resources) would it be noticeably clearer? Better color? I wounder this as well.
 

choucove

New Member
There's a lot of confusing regarding graphics cards today, and how it compares with just basic or integrated graphics as it pertains to the design business, so let me go through some comparisons and information as it might affect you.

First off, the latest integrated graphics engines out there (such as the Intel HD included with several of the latest generation of Intel processors, or the AMD Radeon 4250 found on the 880G chipset) are many times more powerful than integrated graphics a few years back. Graphical hardware performance has been probably the fastest developing and improving technology in the last ten years. This means that even integrated graphics (on newer platforms) offer high resolutions for large screen displays, as well as high quality color and display options. If you are wanting to do a lot of games on it, you'd need a dedicated graphics card, but again that's not pertinent to design use, is it?

So, why get a dedicated graphics card? Well, the general thought is, "A dedicated graphics card has its own RAM so it will free up space in your actual RAM." However, as I explained recently in another thread here, that's not exactly the case usually. Generally speaking, the computer must still set aside some RAM space even with a dedicated graphics card. This is because some of the data that is stored within the graphics card memory must also be stored within RAM if the CPU is to have access to calculate the data as well, as until recently there was no way for the CPU to directly access the memory on the graphics card.

In fact, it used to be that you considered a graphics card more powerful if it had more onboard memory (512 MB vs. 1 GB) however this simply isn't the case anymore. The days of making a card more powerful by slapping on more memory just doesn't work anymore. Most graphics cards today have 1 GB or so of RAM, and instead of adding more they make it faster and more efficient. There are a lot of other key factors that make graphics cards powerful. Just for example, the graphics card I previously had been running in my home computer was a GeForce GTX 280 with 1 GB of memory. The newer GeForce GTX 460 with only 768 MB of memory operates up to 20% faster than my GTX 280 even though it has less onboard memory AND half the memory bandwidth.

So again, why get a dedicated graphics card? That's getting harder and harder to really justify as integrated graphics are becoming so powerful today offering the features for designing that the dedicated cards offer, they just can't really support the heavily GPU oriented tasks like running demanding video games. However, there are some things that your system can benefit from for having a dedicated graphics card. First, a more powerful graphics card is going to be able to handle the programs and objects running within your operating system with more ease. For example, on an integrated graphics running at full 1920 X 1200 resolution, if you've got Firefox open playing a video as well as Adobe Photoshop rendering a workspace, there's sooo many pixels being output and rendered that when you start dragging around your Firefox and Adobe windows it may cause the video to freeze up, or windows to become a little unresponsive as you drag objects across the screen from one area of Adobe to the next. On a dedicated graphics card, though, it can use its more powerful GPU and the onboard cache to process this kind of work more fluidly than an integrated option.

Having a dedicated graphics card is going to also handle some of the work that is being done at the CPU level, meaning you'll have more system resources at the CPU free to do work. This is becoming less and less noticeable, though, as processors today have so much power and often so many cores!

Additionally, there's some software out there starting to take advantage of the incredible power in modern GPUs to help speed along calculations. The newer versions of Adobe software are just one example where, if you have a new graphics card capable of GPU acceleration, the software can use the power of the GPU to speed up renders and other very high-calculation tasks tremendously and does make a big difference.

If you do a lot of design work within Adobe using a lot of filters, layers, effects, etc. or you use any kind of software that deals with 3-dimensional design (such as a CAD software) then a dedicated graphics card is much more highly recommended. But, for your standard 2-dimensional graphics design, you're not going to be getting better color or image quality really - that's more dependent upon your monitor and color calibrations - or higher resolution outputs - most modern integrated graphics can handle up to 1920 X 1200 resolutions just fine for design type tasks.
 

David Wright

New Member
Thanks Choucove, that explains all.
Did you write all that or is that from a site?

If you did, you would do well to write for tech sites or magazines.
 

wes70

New Member
Yep, Choucove helped me in my last computer purchase, providing info that even I could understand! Thanks.

David's right, you should write "Computer Tech For Dummies".
 

Wes Phifer

New Member
Thanks. That really helped in a real world way. I have asked that to other computer guys and they start comparing one to another instead of telling me if I need one for what I am doing. Very informative.
 

rcook99

New Member
Chucove also helped me put a GREAT parts list together wheni built my first box in January. I ran a burn in test per his direction and it ran flawless. I was amazed at the whole bench test and burn in process. But what really blew my mind was the software he suggested was able to monitor the temperatures in each processor core, motherboard and video card. With the extra processor cooling unit the computer ran at very cool temperatures even under a full load. Once again I say thank you Chucove
 

choucove

New Member
Well thank you all! I really do enjoy getting to share information and help in any way that I possibly can. It takes a lot of time and playing sometimes just to learn a little bit about what works best and what just doesn't work period, as you yourselves know in the sign business.

I don't do any professional article writing, but it would be interesting to get into! I'm planning to redo the structure of my website and think I may post up some articles about tech-related information, such as what I explained above, comparisons between off-the-shelf computers and custom-built systems, recent technology releases, and more directly on my website.

If you are planning to be a the International Sign Expo in Las Vegas I'd love to share more info or help if I can! This will be my first year to visit.
 

OldPaint

New Member
i got a gigabyte m/b amd 2.8 gig quad core om board video card. 2 gig ddr2 800 ram. was thinking of gettin a add on 1 gig video card. i dont do games and dont print so as a design machine as it is............is plenty fast and serves me well. with the x4 processors in the UNGANGED mode, each processor can run video while the other is processing data.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
If you do a lot of design work within Adobe using a lot of filters, layers, effects, etc. or you use any kind of software that deals with 3-dimensional design (such as a CAD software) then a dedicated graphics card is much more highly recommended.


That is precisely why I have my own dedicated graphics card even though some people seem to think I'm crazy (or have more money to spend) for doing so.
 

njshorts

New Member
Choucove
If you were to build a PC for what we do, would you post the specs here for us?
Thanks!

What software are you using? Is this to be a dedicated machine for one process or an all-in one?

For grins, my budget machine is a Gigabyte GA-MA770TUD3, AMD Athlon II 3.1 x2, 12 GB DDR3 1333, WD Caviar 250 GB SATA, nVidia 7600GS 512MB Dual-DVI pci-e video card, CoolerMaster extreme 460w power supply, whatever DVD-RW I had laying around, an old lenovo case with matching multicard reader and dual 19" monitors. All-in-all, the computer itself can be built using parts from newegg for under 500$ + monitors. If I had it to do over again, the only thing I'd change is the processor- I'd get an x4... maybe another $50. Add your own OS or buy Windows 7 64-bit from NewEgg. (If you have apps that won't run in win7 64, use a virtual machine with XP)

It will be our dedicated Flexi machine in a few months when we upgrade workstations to Mac Pros. Currently using it for Flexi, Corel Draw, Photoshop, Office suite, (plus iTunes, IM clients, web browsing, everything else that wastes my time) etc with my Macbook Pro as a spare Corel/Photoshop machine.

Edit- quick note before getting bashed for throwing memory at problems, even though it may not be needed... 12 GB is extremely cheap right now, and I've been a sysadmin for 12 years... still do some contracting from time to time. the last thing I want to worry about is my own machine, so I tend to use the 'toss RAM at it until it shuts up' approach for myself.
 

choucove

New Member
Configuring and recommending just one computer configuration is kind of hard, as there are so many options out there and different situations where certain hardware is more beneficial or necessary than in other situations. I can, however, provide a couple different ideal options based off experience that fits for most usage needs and a broad range of budgets.

One thing to note about the prices quoted below: These are the prices on Newegg on the date of this posting, and prices change quite regularly. You may also be able to save a little by finding items sold together in combo, which can add up savings quickly! But this should give you an idea of the general cost of the given configuration.

The Budget Builder
  • AMD Athlon II X4 640 3.0 Ghz quad-core socket AM3 processor
  • ASUS M4A88TD-M/USB3 880G socket AM3 mATX motherboard with integrated GeForce 4250 graphics
  • Corsair XMS 4 GB (1 DIMM) DDR3 1333 performance memory
  • Western Digital Black 640 GB 7,200rpm SATAIII 64MB Cache hard drive
  • Corsair Enthusiast TX650 ATX 650Watt power supply
  • Cooler Master Elite 341 mATX desktop computer case
  • Cooler Master Hyper N CPU cooler
  • Arctic Silver 5 thermal compound
  • Lite-ON SATA DVD-Burner drive with Lightscribe
  • Windows 7 Professional 64-bit OEM
Total Price: $665



The AMD Designer
  • AMD Phenom II X6 1090T 3.2 Ghz hexa-core socket AM3 processor
  • ASUS M4A89TD PRO/USB3 890FX socket AM3 ATX motherboard
  • PNY GeForce GTS 450 1 GB PCI-express 2.1 DX11 graphics card
  • Corsair XMS 8 GB (2 X 4 GB) DDR3 1333 performance memory
  • Western Digital Black 640 GB 7,200rpm SATAIII 64MB Cache hard drive
  • Corsair Enthusiast TX650 ATX 650Watt power supply
  • Cooler Master CM690 II desktop computer case
  • Cooler Master Hyper N CPU cooler
  • Arctic Silver 5 thermal compound
  • Lite-ON SATA DVD-Burner drive with Lightscribe
  • Windows 7 Professional 64-bit OEM
Total Price: $1050



The Intel Designer
  • Intel Core i5-2500K 3.3 Ghz quad-core socket 1155 processor
  • ASUS P8P67 P67 socket 1155 ATX motherboard
  • PNY GeForce GTS 450 1 GB PCI-express 2.1 DX11 graphics card
  • Corsair XMS 8 GB (2 X 4 GB) DDR3 1333 performance memory
  • Western Digital Black 640 GB 7,200rpm SATAIII 64MB Cache hard drive
  • Corsair Enthusiast TX650 ATX 650Watt power supply
  • Cooler Master CM690 II desktop computer case
  • Cooler Master Hyper N CPU cooler
  • Arctic Silver 5 thermal compound
  • Lite-ON SATA DVD-Burner drive with Lightscribe
  • Windows 7 Professional 64-bit OEM
Total Price: $1050



The Ultimate Workstation
  • Intel Core i7-2600K 3.5 Ghz quad-core (hyperthreaded) socket 1155 processor
  • ASUS P8P67 EVO P67 socket 1155 ATX motherboard
  • PNY GeForce GTS 550 Ti 1 GB PCI-express 2.1 DX11 graphics card
  • Corsair Vengeance 8 GB (4 X 4 GB) DDR3 1600 CAS 8 memory
  • OCZ Vertex 2 OCZSSD2-2VTX120G 2.5" 120GB SATA II (2 drives non-RAID)
  • Western Digital Black 1 TB 7,200rpm SATAIII 64MB Cache hard drive
  • Corsair Professional AX750 ATX 750Watt power supply
  • Cooler Master CM690 II desktop computer case
  • Cooler Master v6 GT CPU cooler
  • Arctic Silver 5 thermal compound
  • Lite-ON SATA DVD-Burner drive with Lightscribe
  • Windows 7 Professional 64-bit OEM
Total Price: $2,000
 

Wes Phifer

New Member
Why 2 drives non-RAID. What is RAID anyway. lol.

I just bought one close to your budget machine.

AMD Athlon II X4 3.2 Ghz Quad Core Processor
Memory (RAM): 4 GB DDR3 1600 MHz Speed by Kingston
1 TB SATA - Western Digital 7200 RPM
Power Supply: 480 Watts
ATI Radeon HD 4650 1GB, PCI-E Graphics card
B/G/N Wireless adapter.
Optical Drive 1: DVD Burner RW + -
Windows 7 - Ultimate Version 64 bit

It doesn't say what motherboard. I should be getting it tomorrow. I paid $620 shipping and all. I didn't get screwed to bad did I?
 

choucove

New Member
That is a pretty good computer system for the price. A lot of the times what really makes or breaks a system are some of the brands. For instance, if you use a high quality ASUS motherboard you're going to be getting more options, features, quality, and probably reliability than if you have a cheaper EliteGroup motherboard, but you are going to pay more for it. Same things can be seen in the Power Supply (the area where most builders skimp.) The Corsair Enthusiast series is one of the most reliable if not THE most reliable power supply on the market. it comes with incredibly high quality capacitors, solid construction, and a 5 year warranty where a lot of builders would use a subpar PSU such as from Rosewill that uses cheaper components and comes with either a 2 or 3 year warranty.

I was thinking that my selection of OCZ SSD drives in non-RAID would raise a few questions. I'll explain that out as well.

SSDs are of course known for offering immense speed compared to a standard hard drive. Your storage subsystem is the slowest part of your overall computer, so the faster you can make this the faster your entire system will run. A single SSD can offer more speed than up to 3 or 4 standard hard drives combined, so putting two SSDs together in a RAID 0 (which makes the two drives function as one much faster drive) you could get nearly 7 or 8 times the performance of a standard hard drive.

However, when you set up hard drives in RAID 0 there is absolutely no fault tolerance, which means if one of the SSD drives fails, or the controller loses connection with it, then the entire operating system and all the data can be lost and you have to start from square one. You can choose then to set up in RAID 1 which would made a duplicate clone of one hard drive onto the other to act as a backup, but that is not recommended with SSD drives because it decreases performance (the key point of using a SSD.) RAID 0 arrays may work great for those wanting a fast design system, but the technology behind SSD RAIDs is so fast that even modern integrated RAID controllers found on most motherboards just can't keep up with the performance over a long period of time. If your motherboard dies or system crashes and you need to transfer your SSD drives to another computer to retrieve data, you can't just unplug them in a RAID 0 configuration, plug them in to any other standard computer, and be able to get the data.

All in all, whether you choose to use RAID is up to you and your needs. Again, just as I stated in that post the situations differ sometimes which may call for the use of certain hardware over others. Personally, though, I've had problems with RAID arrays in the past and would rather not have to worry about it. After running a RAID 0 array of two OCZ Vertex drives in my main computer for over a year, and having it randomly drop a drive from the array causing the entire system to lose the operating system, crash, and have to be reinstalled from scratch, I decided to just use them as single drives. The performance gain from them even in single drive mode is more than enough really. I installed Windows 7 on one drive and the majority of my programs on that same drive. on the second SSD I installed some of the more demanding applications like Adobe Creative Suite CS4, games, etc. and set up Windows and Adobe to use that second SSD as the temporary cache location and scratch disk. All my actual documents, pictures, and data is then saved off onto a single 1.5 TB hard drive that is copied daily over to another 1.5 TB hard drive (again, no RAID) and it's been working flawlessly. The other added benefit of this is if my computer system fails for some reason, I can unplug any drive or all drives from the computer, plug them in to any computer out there and have all the data recognizable and able for me to work with instantly.
 

signswi

New Member
Just a note on a question in the OP that went unanswered: HDMI is just DVI with an audio channel and a secured content mechanism. There's no visual quality difference, it's the same.
 

Wes Phifer

New Member
Man you guys are awesome. I wish I could think of some more good questions. This is a learning experience. Choucove you need a blog with some of this info. Your good at putting it in terms people can understand.
 

choucove

New Member
I've told customers before that only about 10% of my daily work is actually fixing or working on the computer issue at hand. The other 90% of it is communicating with the customer and also explaining out the issue how they can understand. I feel if you understand the issue or the information, then you are more likely going to make a better decision towards your technology needs and will therefore have a better overall experience with it.
 

Ponto

New Member
I've told customers before that only about 10% of my daily work is actually fixing or working on the computer issue at hand. The other 90% of it is communicating with the customer and also explaining out the issue how they can understand. I feel if you understand the issue or the information, then you are more likely going to make a better decision towards your technology needs and will therefore have a better overall experience with it.


:notworthy:........awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JP
 
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