Vinyl Bubbling when installed on polyethylene tank

[Desert_Signs]

It is why signs on gas pumps state it is illegal to put gas into a plastic container.

I find it hard to consider anyone an expert on outgassing if they don't even know that nearly every single gas can sold in America is made out of plastic.......

I'd love to see a picture of this sign on the gas pump that says you can't put gas in a plastic container.........

 

[Techman]

I find it hard to consider anyone an expert on outgassing if they don't even know that nearly every single gas can sold in America is made out of plastic.......

I'd love to see a picture of this sign on the gas pump that says you can't put gas in a plastic container.....

Since you insist on trying to discredit people.. specifically a directed Ad Hominem attack...

And you are off topic.. That is worse

Every one else knows it is illegal to put gasoline into any plastic container other than APPROVED special containers. Every one knows that the ingredients of gasoline will eat most plastics. Every one else has observed a tag on gas pumps that say it is illegal to pump gas into plastic containers,,,

And yes,, there are signs on gas pumps stating not to put gas in plastic containers. Meaning MILK JUGS or SODA BOTTLES or other Unapproved plastic containers.. But then someone like you would probably put gas in a MILK jug or a soda bottle.

Oh, in case you never saw one... And maybe never read one I put one here for you.

 

[GAC05]

You could try using perorated window film - that way any trapped (or generated) gas would have an easy escape route.
Just don't lam it or you'll be back to square one.


wayne k
guam usa

 

[Desert_Signs]

Since you insist on trying to discredit people.. specifically a directed Ad Hominem attack...

And you are off topic.. That is worse

Every one else knows it is illegal to put gasoline into any plastic container other than APPROVED special containers. Every one knows that the ingredients of gasoline will eat most plastics. Every one else has observed a tag on gas pumps that say it is illegal to pump gas into plastic containers,,,

And yes,, there are signs on gas pumps stating not to put gas in plastic containers. Meaning MILK JUGS or SODA BOTTLES or other Unapproved plastic containers.. But then someone like you would probably put gas in a MILK jug or a soda bottle.

Oh, in case you never saw one... And maybe never read one I put one here for you.

Not off topic. You're convinced outgassing doesn't exist. And to prove your point that plastic is porous, you say that it's illegal to put gas in plastic containers. You even went so far as to say every gas pump has a sign posted that it's illegal to put it in plastic containers.

So, to rebut my statement that you might not know what you're talking about, you post proof that what you said was incorrect? I'm not sure how that's an ad hominem attack. You posted completely inaccurate information to back up your expertise. Pointing out that your expertise may be lacking based on that inaccurate information is not an ad hominem attack.

 

[Gino]

No one is arguing outgassing does or does not exist..... or at least I don't think I am.

What I am saying..... the few pictures in this thread alone, are not the result of outgassing as you and others are describing.

How is it the outgassing is affecting one color and not the other ?? Just please answer that one first.

Why is it, the outgassing did not take place while the material was masked ?? Please answer that one second.




It's an old known fact, what is taking place here is merely poor application. That's the whole story. While the people having these problems are experiencing this and haven't a clue, is complete evidence, they didn't get all the air out upon first squeegeeing the vinyl down. Over time, the air travels here and there and creates bubbles. The air must go somewhere. When they're pin-sized, they will go away over time from the sun and heat exposure. Bubbles like seen here, will not go away. There is no magic pill for shoddy application. You either do it right, think you do it right or do it wrong.

We routinely use the same substrates as this person. We have these problems like..... never. On occasion, but it is our fault..... and we know it. We don't go around looking for a scapegoat or finding some magic bubble in the substrate wandering around aimlessly, until vinyl is put down and then comes to the surface. Geese, do you know how stoopid that sounds ??

Is a vehicles body outgassing when the customer says..... why all the bubbles ?? Is their aluminum composite board outgassing when you see all the bubbles ??

​

 

[reQ]

Oh, just had to share this one.

Had a guy who stopped by with his truck completely wrapped in matte black 1080. Wrap was installed by 3m certified installer here in town. Recesses were not installed properly and they all lifted like biatch lol. He came back to that shop and asked wtf is going on. Was given and answer that is all good, that "bubble" will go away. Really disappointed him when said he was screwed on that.

P.S. That certified shop has for lease & closed signs hanging in the window... not even a year after that person opened up.

 

[Fred Weiss]

There's a big difference between bubbles present immediately after a pressure sensitive adhesive backed film is applied (bad technique) and bubbles that appear a day or two after vinyl is applied (outgassing, substrate properties or chemical reaction). In the first case, bubbles do go away after a couple of days and nights due to warming and cooling as well as the nature of adhesives being web like and vinyl films being porous. In the second case, one need look no further than the fact that polycarbonates such as Lexan® have been identifying the treated side to be applied to on their protective paper for years.

Polyethylene, polypropylene and polycarbonate plastics are all in the same "low impact plastic" category and should all be considered as problem surfaces for pressure sensitive film applications. Whether the cause of bubbles appearing a day or two after a smooth application is outgassing or something else, it does happen and bad squeegee technique has little or nothing to do with it when it does.

 

[Mike Paul]

There's a big difference between bubbles present immediately after a pressure sensitive adhesive backed film is applied (bad technique) and bubbles that appear a day or two after vinyl is applied (outgassing, substrate properties or chemical reaction). In the first case, bubbles do go away after a couple of days and nights due to warming and cooling as well as the nature of adhesives being web like and vinyl films being porous. In the second case, one need look no further than the fact that polycarbonates such as Lexan® have been identifying the treated side to be applied to on their protective paper for years.

Polyethylene, polypropylene and polycarbonate plastics are all in the same "low impact plastic" category and should all be considered as problem surfaces for pressure sensitive film applications. Whether the cause of bubbles appearing a day or two after a smooth application is outgassing or something else, it does happen and bad squeegee technique has little or nothing to do with it when it does.

Fred's exactly right,

A few small bubbles in vinyl application on most substrates like trucks etc. will go away after a few temperature changes. Other substrates like polycarbonate too but it can also go the other way...

I was at a customers shop a couple weeks ago and the lettering on his polycarbonate sign was bubbled and blistered all to hell. Couldn't believe it because when I installed the lettering and the sign it was perfect.

25 years in business, dry application, no bubbles, correct side out... Outgassing is not a myth.

When I purchase Polycarbonate I pull the protective sheet both sides and give it a minimum of a day and a half, usually two for outgassing and sometimes a week.

The sign was installed well over a year ago so once it blisters it doesn't mend itself...
First one I experienced and was quite shocked.

 

[reQ]

When I purchase Polycarbonate I pull the protective sheet both sides and give it a minimum of a day and a half

Tats what i do

 

[a77]

How is it the outgassing is affecting one color and not the other ?? Just please answer that one first.

Oracal 751 - Bubbles
Oracal 651 - Bubbles
Fellers House brand ShineRite - No Bubbles!

Assuming the OP installed all test pieces the same way, then are we looking something with the vinyl, adhesive, and substrate combination.

I think it's also probably safe to assume the original lettering done was done by the same installer, at the same time, with same technique (wet or dry), same squeegee, wouldn't you say? My guess would be two different brands of vinyl are why the black and red behaved differently.

Really interesting thread, for my backlits I use makrolon (polycarbonate), remove liners 24 hour before application (outward side only), install with rapid tac, and avery cast, never a problem yet. A customer of mine showed me a sign that was done by someone else and full of tiny blisters. He asked me how is it possible that it happened, I had to tell him I have no idea. I think it's easy to say the installer messed up, had a bad squeegee, used wrong materials, but really do we know what they did wrong, if anything?

 

[kheebl]

Assuming the OP installed all test pieces the same way, then are we looking something with the vinyl, adhesive, and substrate combination.

I think it's also probably safe to assume the original lettering done was done by the same installer, at the same time, with same technique (wet or dry), same squeegee, wouldn't you say? My guess would be two different brands of vinyl are why the black and red behaved differently.

Really interesting thread, for my backlits I use makrolon (polycarbonate), remove liners 24 hour before application (outward side only), install with rapid tac, and avery cast, never a problem yet. A customer of mine showed me a sign that was done by someone else and full of tiny blisters. He asked me how is it possible that it happened, I had to tell him I have no idea. I think it's easy to say the installer messed up, had a bad squeegee, used wrong materials, but really do we know what they did wrong, if anything?

All 3 test pieces were installed the same way, same squeegee and dry. No bubbles when Installed they showed up a few days later just like the ones the other installer did. It has to be different materials between the black and dark red.

 

[Gino]

Alright, so now we are following which theory ?? Same substrate, but different colors or different manufacturers respond differently to outgassing on same material, but not the same ??

I don't know about all of you scientists out there, but how does this fit your needs ??

I see a lota people saying assuming this or if that happens or if using this on the second Tuesday of the month, will determine the outcome. However, then you say, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Do you hear how silly this sounds ?? If this stuff was outgassing to the degree you ALL are saying, it would be consistent across the board. No hit & miss projects. With an answer like you want us naysayers to believe, you need more consistency in your hypothesis.

Again, there is always outgassing, in just about every molecular structure known to man, but if it's not repelling mask, paint, vinyl and other coatings all the time, it is just so minute, you won't have any problems, unless you are doing something wrong. If this was a well established fact of some colors popping off, paint peeling, or nothing sticking, there would be some promoter going down to reduce or remove this phenomenon y'all are talking about. All of the situations you people bring up, along with all your reasoning for happening are just excuses to the nth degree of some end-user making a boo-boo.

The big manufacturers have all kinds of statistics on this outgassing, but isn't it odd, not everyone has the same problems ??