Vinyl cutting with Illustrator?

[Techman]

Bob H ,,Very well said,
I deam of having those kind of articulation skills.

In fact,,
And an example.. In past posts I railed about people using witches brew for application fluids. My premise was not using some home made weasel piss. My premise is that acting like a professional means being a professional and using professional tools. (Rapid TAc ) And quit trying to be cheap, quit trying to do a job cheap, or looking for the cheapest way to complete a project.

Defining the skills into professional / hobbyist really makes a point.
Professionals find ways to do a job right while others look for ways to do a job cheapo.. (stealing software, making weasel piss, amd using calandered vinyl in place of trans.)

And then.. I find it hard to believe someone hanging around a sign board,, who has the skills to crack a hasp dongle,, would waste time making peanuts in teh sign bizz.. I personally know / knew some of the very few people in the world who had the skills to reverse a dongle wrapper.. They are is such demand they write their own ticket..

And more.. There is no need to write a hasp emulator.. there are hundreds around already. If this person had the skills to write one he would know there are such emulators.

And then.There is no need to buy flexi at $3 grand to cut out of illy when there are several great alternatives such as cocut pro for just a few hundreds...

Then please, point me at a plotter program that supports hobbyists

Cocut pro will operate a cutter for hobbyists at a very economical cost.. Cocut regular is even cheaper.. If you wish to raise such premise then you should get more data and be more informed..


--Techman

 

[Robert]

Neat, I get to comment on a subject. I just... JUST got into this sign industry this last month. This is a side business thing while I work towards retirement on the federal level. I've had alot of spiderweb effect in this beginning process. People heard about it from a donation of products I did for a local charity. The other people send me crap jpeg and bmp images, which are converted to vectors. I cut samples and send them out with an estimate for the 300-350 stickers they want. What do I get back? "Oh, well my friend said he can give them to me for 50 cents each and you're higher than that" followed by "I'm not trying to lowball you, it's just what my friend can do them for". Is he SERIOUS? We're talking 4 different 6" logos, 1/2 in black, 1/2 in white... 350 total stickers. Obviously no conception of layout for best material usage, cutting, weeding, masking, trimming, packaging. I told him I use quality vinyl with a 7-8 year outdoor life. Though I don't have a HIGH-END cutter, I did spend $3200 on it and software. I really want this to be starting into something making some profit. Though it's AMAZING how many people want something for nothing. And how many new 'freinds' I have who 'just want one sticker'. I tell them they should pay me MORE than the kiosk at the mall. I'm here at work with them. They just tell me what they want and I bring it in the next day, all ready to go. If the mall wants $3.50 for a 6" decal, I figure I can "give" them to co-workers at $3 safely... right. Hey, how about a buck? hm, hey, how about you drive your cheap-a$$ to the mall and talk to the 12 year old at the kiosk. I'd love to get an actual pricing guide, while at the same time.. what's the use? people want it all for free.

 

[Robert]

Oh yeah, and for what it's worth.. .I'd LOVE to have a bypass to this USB hasp thing. I'd like to leave it here in my home office... and still be able to do work on my laptop while I'm away, without the risk of losing or wearing out the hasp. Also, I paid like $1600 for this software... no way in HELL is someone getting a free or cheap copy of it.

 

[Bobby H]

My product is completely different than the vinyl cuts, but uses them extensively for stencils and logos. Against my better judgment, I'd invite you to look at exactly what I'm dealing with.
http://www.ransai.com/mall/

Maybe I'm missing something. But if you're producing custom arcade controllers you're probably going to need a different logo printing method than just applying vinyl to the product. I can picture how users could wear away the vinyl in little time. High performance vinyl graphics can last at least several years -but such graphics are not meant to be contacted by hands or other abrasive items. Add to that the concern that if you're customizing the controllers with logos besides your own then you may be committing trademark infringement (unless you obtained prior written permission to use the logos).

While I understand your sentiments, I'd also like to point out that I have never made such a statement, nor would I ever have the ignorance to.

I hope my post didn't attribute such a statement to you either. For other readers who might have skimmed past my last post I stated, "It's pretty annoying at times when someone visits this forum and announces something to the effect, 'I just bought a vinyl cutter and some software to start a sign business. Can you guys help me design my first logo? I don't know what I'm doing.'"

A good number of newbies make such posts in the Signs101 forums on a fairly frequent basis. I'm not going to get in their thread and flame them for it. But I do have to admit the annoyed feelings I have over it. Basically they're saying, "I'm not qualified for the job I am holding."

To make an even more cynical statement, they probably are qualified for the job in the eyes of their employer. To the employer the only thing that matters is the employee is able to turn on the computer, launch the vinyl cutting program, be able to cut some lettering out of roll vinyl and then apply it on a banner. Oh, and the other employer concern is to find someone who can do that and accept $6 an hour.

Then please, point me at a plotter program that supports hobbyists. I don't believe any exist.

CoCut. You can choose the standard version or the "pro" version. It works with CorelDRAW 6-12, Illustrator 8-CS2 and Freehand 8-MX. It is about as inexpensive as any vinyl cutting add-on will get and still provide decent results.

For a full time sign shop, it makes more sense to have a professional level sign making application like FlexiSign, Gerber Omega or SignLab (along with a slew of other professional graphic design programs, such as Photoshop, Illustrator, CorelDRAW, etc.).

 

[Random]

Maybe I'm missing something. But if you're producing custom arcade controllers you're probably going to need a different logo printing method than just applying vinyl to the product. I can picture how users could wear away the vinyl in little time. High performance vinyl graphics can last at least several years -but such graphics are not meant to be contacted by hands or other abrasive items. Add to that the concern that if you're customizing the controllers with logos besides your own then you may be committing trademark infringement (unless you obtained prior written permission to use the logos).

Two steps ahead of you. The stencils I need are one-time-use - a paint mask. (Where I apply the vinyl to a primed box, paint over it and remove the vinyl.) $50 for a single-use stencil is ostensibly steep. And no, I'm extremely touchy about copyright issues; I only use my own art, public-license art, or custom art supplied to me by a customer. My competitor has none of these qualms, and it's made me extremely angry for a long time. >:[

CoCut. You can choose the standard version or the "pro" version. It works with CorelDRAW 6-12, Illustrator 8-CS2 and Freehand 8-MX. It is about as inexpensive as any vinyl cutting add-on will get and still provide decent results.

Sounds like something I'd want. I'll look into it - thank you!

 

[bob]

You realize doing such a thing is a federal felony, correct?

You might want to get better legal advice than that which you appear to have been receiving. There is nothing felonious, federal or otherwise, in running software in the evironment of my chosing. The software is unaltered in any way and my ownership of it is legitimate. How I chose to run it is my business, not the software developer's. Or yours.

Regardless, doing an end run and creating an alternate environment is something I would do simply because I can. If I were interested, which I am not.

That out of the way, I'd be up for playing a fast rubber of hardware and software 'can you top this' as well as matching hash marks for tours of duty and related experience against a side of self-proclaimed 'professionals' digging on this sand pile. The problem with doing that is that it flies in the face of my desire to have a lifestyle that doesn't require my presence. Inscrutibility being the first step to that end.

I do this work because I want to, certainly not because I have to. This is what I do, it's not at all what I am. That's the difference between someone styling themselves a 'businessman' and others as 'craftsman'. The latter is merely what you do, the former is what you are. I'm content with what I am, leaving me time to indulge myself doing what I want to do.

That being the case, I sell the fruits of my labors for what I want to get for them, not what others want me to get for them. Apparently to somehow preserve the ever elusive integrity of their business or something. Someone else's business is Yet Another thing in which I have no interest.

My list of uninteresting things is quite long, touching upon the environment, the state of the union, what nonsense anyone might chose to believe, as well as a host of others areas.

That last does have an asterisk: What someone chooses to believe is not particularly interesting but the reasons for believing whatever it is can be of interest. Or at least entertaining.

 

[iSign]

Random, I'll refrain from a tacky apology because I tend to exhibit enough passive/agressive tendencies already... but I will say I found it somewhat reassuring to see sentiments at least similar to mine accumulating today & I felt that was important as much for my own sense of validation, as for you to get a sense that I was not some lone wolf targeting you & you alone for ridicule.

Similar to Bobby's admission of this thread serving as an outlet for venting the annoyance twords the "number of newbies make such posts in the Signs101 forums on a fairly frequent basis" ... I stated views that have developed over the years... not a lashing out based only on your comments yesterday. In fact I hoped to step around you on this & spar only with Bob... but it wasn't meant to be.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment.

Years ago I aquired an excellent account cutting vinyl graphics for a windsurf manufacturer here. He ordered about $800 worth of complex cut vinyl graphics every few weeks. Most of my fees were based on labor... & although I considered it slightly "skill-based" ... it was still just weeding vinyl, & almost anyone could learn to do it in minutes. Anyway, the guy finally told me he bought his own plotter.

Of course I was sad to lose such a good source of income... I really couldn't blame him, & of course I can't blame you either.

But lets say for a minute that regarding Bobby's comment:

add to that the concern that if you're customizing the controllers with logos besides your own then you may be committing trademark infringement (unless you obtained prior written permission to use the logos).

You of course probably DO have written permission to use the logos.. & lets say you usually sell your product to the end user... but some new gaming arcade decides to buy them by the dozen from you... then, suddenly they want to open a new arcade.... but don't want to pay your price. Say they find a way to make their own controllers... but THEY are willing to put bootleg IIDX decals on theirs to save a few bucks...

well, I know the point was obvious long before I rehashed it... but you will have to agree that losing busines to a smart client or competitor on a level playing field is easier to swallow then losing business to unethical business practices. Bob was hinting around at.. if not actually condoning or suggesting illegal business practices.

And Bob.. I see now you rolled out those inflamatory views of your on one of those stunt bikes... complete with the full-on backpedaling feature. :Big Laugh ...going from:

...writing and placing in the public domain a universal hasp key emulator ...I admit to being suffciently perverse as to enjoy giving the finger to these people

but later rephrasing as:

...this is not thievery, piracy, or even moral repugnancy... All I'm doing is creating an alternate environment under which it can run.
...under this process you'd still need a valid user ID and hasp key code.

actually you wouldn't need a "valid" one... at this point any one would work, which is why it is illegal, & why insinuations of "placing [it] in the public domain" stinks of everything this post has become about.

Oh yeah, and for what it's worth.. .I'd LOVE to have a bypass to this USB hasp thing. I'd like to leave it here in my home office... and still be able to do work on my laptop while I'm away, without the risk of losing or wearing out the hasp. Also, I paid like $1600 for this software... no way in HELL is someone getting a free or cheap copy of it.

Robert, I'm with you bro... before I allow myself to appear to lean too far into rightousness on this thread... I have spoken out at great length in the past about how these security keys, while justified in an effort to get us to pay to play, end up causing all of us legal users a great deal of inconvenience as a result.

 

[Bobby H]

You might want to get better legal advice than that which you appear to have been receiving. There is nothing felonious, federal or otherwise, in running software in the evironment of my chosing. The software is unaltered in any way and my ownership of it is legitimate. How I chose to run it is my business, not the software developer's. Or yours.

If you don't want to make it any of my business or anyone else's, don't brag about how you're going to reverse engineer copywrited software on a public forum. If I were going to do such a thing I sure as hell wouldn't tell anyone about it, especially in a 'blog.

And I also know for a fact you would be breaking federal law by hacking the dongles of copyrighted software. There are numerous software piracy criminal cases which back up my warning. One of the most famous cases of prosecution over reverse engineering is the DeCSS hack for DVD Video. A couple guys in Scandinavia hacked the copy protection system for DVD just so they could play their movies on a computer running Linux. Our government had those guys extradicted to the United States to face charges. Ultimately they were aquitted, but numerous rulings criminalized any act to crack or reverse engineer any copy protection system. Products like DVD X-Copy had to be pulled from the marketplace (even though the DeCSS hacks and other DVD copying utilities are easy to aquire on the 'net).

That out of the way, I'd be up for playing a fast rubber of hardware and software 'can you top this' as well as matching hash marks for tours of duty and related experience against a side of self-proclaimed 'professionals' digging on this sand pile. The problem with doing that is that it flies in the face of my desire to have a lifestyle that doesn't require my presence. Inscrutibility being the first step to that end.

So basically you're saying you have as much experience and qualification to design and make signs as anyone on this board, but don't want to provide any specific proof to back it up? That doesn't make any sense.

I do this work because I want to, certainly not because I have to. This is what I do, it's not at all what I am. That's the difference between someone styling themselves a 'businessman' and others as 'craftsman'. The latter is merely what you do, the former is what you are. I'm content with what I am, leaving me time to indulge myself doing what I want to do.

So I take it you have a different "day job" to pay the bills, right?

Whatever you're doing to pay the bills, are you willing to work that job for free? Basically that's what anyone who wants to grab commercial or industry specific software for nothing expects of the developers. They want the programmers to work for nothing. The losses each company takes from piracy gives their MBA accountants more of an excuse to ship all the programming jobs off to India to save a few bucks.

 

[iSign]

I'd LOVE to have a bypass to this USB hasp thing. I'd like to leave it here in my home office... without the risk of losing or wearing out the hasp.

Robert... it may make your eyes bleed... but I stumbled on these old discussions about this topic:

http://www.4edgetalk.com/sitenet/cgi-bin/netboardr.cgi?fid=106&cid=103&tid=696&sc=20&pg=1&x=0

then this one:

http://www.4edgetalk.com/sitenet/cg...id=106&cid=103&tid=1063&st=0&nd=20&pg=8&sc=40

 

[bob]

So I take it you have a different "day job" to pay the bills, right?

Whatever you're doing to pay the bills, are you willing to work that job for free? Basically that's what anyone who wants to grab commercial or industry specific software for nothing expects of the developers. They want the programmers to work for nothing. The losses each company takes from piracy gives their MBA accountants more of an excuse to ship all the programming jobs off to India to save a few bucks.

You presume into error. If you must know, I have no day job. Signs are are what I have done for over half a century. What I do is signs, what I am is a number of things. Other things. At this juncture in my brief passage through the external reality, the sign business provides me with stakes for poker games as well as feed and shoes for my horses and entry fees to various competitive events. Much more importantly it provides me with some actual non-contrived thing to do. The money is fine but not necessary and most certainly not all there is to it.

Someone else's circumstances might be different. To that I can only offer a shrug.

Moreover I have never, as in ever, advocated purlioning the fruits of another's labors. My interest is merely a manifestation of a fascination with finding flaws in systems, something I used to do for princely fees way back when I did have a day job. I'll leave the actual striking of blows for freedom or whatever ideological flag under which others might sail to those more intense than myself. Just knowing that it can be done, simply and rather elegantly, is sufficient.

My lack of interest in whether or not software jobs are done in India or Antarctica or wherever and whether or not those so engaged labor for free or otherwise approaches total. Merely shifts in the various commercial winds that blow willy-nilly over the planet. It's not bad, it's not good, it just is. Deal with it. Deal with it properly and it can be to your advantage. Stand there and yell at it and all you'll get is a sore throat.

This apparent apathy towards the particular state of things that are stems from a firm grasp of the notion that there exists no good greater than my own and thus the inescapable conclusion that for me and mine, the entire universe exists soley to serve our needs. That others might fare better or worse than ourselves is only a byproduct of the mechanism that exists to serve us.

This view is somewhat flawed, but then so are any and all alternatives. This one at least has the charm of requiring a minimal involvement on my part.

 

[bob]

And Bob.. I see now you rolled out those inflamatory views of your on one of those stunt bikes... complete with the full-on backpedaling feature. ...going from:

Quote (elipsis yours):
...writing and placing in the public domain a universal hasp key emulator ...I admit to being suffciently perverse as to enjoy giving the finger to these people

but later rephrasing as:

Quote(elipsis yours):
...this is not thievery, piracy, or even moral repugnancy... All I'm doing is creating an alternate environment under which it can run.
...under this process you'd still need a valid user ID and hasp key code.

actually you wouldn't need a "valid" one... at this point any one would work, which is why it is illegal, & why insinuations of "placing [it] in the public domain" stinks of everything this post has become about.

Explain just how it might be that any reasonable interpretation of the first statement precludes or gainsays any point made in the second quote. Feel free to use pie charts and any other audio/visual aids you might require to do this.

Moreover, a user id and hasp key code that works is, by definition, a valid user id and hasp key code.

 

[Bobby H]

My lack of interest in whether or not software jobs are done in India or Antarctica or wherever and whether or not those so engaged labor for free or otherwise approaches total. Merely shifts in the various commercial winds that blow willy-nilly over the planet. It's not bad, it's not good, it just is.

So basically, the plain English version is you think you're entitled to using commercial software for free while collecting a paycheck from the sign industry. You could have put it that way rather than writing a series of paragraphs in a stilted and rather zany form.

Congratulations, you're a hypocrite.

 

[bob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random
My lack of interest in whether or not software jobs are done in India or Antarctica or wherever and whether or not those so engaged labor for free or otherwise approaches total. Merely shifts in the various commercial winds that blow willy-nilly over the planet. It's not bad, it's not good, it just is.

So basically, the plain English version is you think you're entitled to using commercial software for free while collecting a paycheck from the sign industry. You could have put it that way rather than writing a series of paragraphs in a stilted and rather zany form.

Congratulations, you're a hypocrite.

First get your attributions correct, those are my words, not Random's, whomever that might be.

But to the point; when I need words put in my mouth I'm capable of doing so myself. How anyone could make the fanciful leap of what seems to pass for logic in your tribe that proceeds from lack of interest in just where software might be produced to advocation of piracy strains the fabric of both the language and reason. I am sufficiently articulate to state exactly what I want to state, passing that through a filter of someone else's set of prejudices only serves to obfuscate, never to clarify.

Secundus: I do not collect a paycheck from the sign industry, I profit from the fruits of my labors. If the 'sign industry', whatever mysterious collective that might be, were to disappear in a cloud of greasy vapor my concern with that happenstance would be right up there with just where software is being written.

Neither do I use commercial software for free. If you must know, all the resources, software and hardware, that I have gathered about me have been purchased from legitimate sources at full list price. That I am able to scout holes in someone's system merely indicates that I can scout holes in someone's system. Nothing else, especially not raising the Jolly Roger and setting sail on a voyage rife with rape, pillage, and plunder. You attempt to get way too much mileage out of simple statements.

I might add that I participate here because there can be some really good information. This always serves to either confirm what I already know or to cause me to question what I thought to be the case. Either way, I tune my chosen craft. Here in this forum, it is especially pleasant, the spectre of raging hormones and vacuous opinions is usually kept at an endurable noise level.

Adding to that, some stranger's opinion on socio-economic issues offers no real information. At least none that I feel any compelling need to heed.

 

[iSign]

Explain just how it might be that any reasonable interpretation of the first statement precludes or gainsays any point made in the second quote. Feel free to use pie charts and any other audio/visual aids you might require to do this.

Moreover, a user id and hasp key code that works is, by definition, a valid user id and hasp key code.

In the first statement Bob is picking the lock to Scanvec-Amiable's pie store (with his own simple, and elegant I might add) homemade lock picking tools (which of course makes it legal) ... once IN... Bob is setting numerous fresh baked pies outside the locked door in the public domain (not to mention gaining perverse pleasure doing so... or at least writing about his alleged ability & audacity to do so)

In the second statement Bob is simply enjoying his fresh baked (& legally acquired) Scanvec-Amiable pie, albeit peeking under the crust for an innocent look at the ingredients making up said pie.

My lack of interest in whether or not Bob chokes on said pie approaches total. Merely shifts in the various olfactory winds that blow willy-nilly over the kitchen. It's not bad, it's not good, it just is. choke on it.

 

[bob]

Doug my good lad...

It doesn't seem to work as well for you as it does for me, does it? You come off sounding a bit like a cop talking over his head. That's probably because you're having to reach for it. As for myself, how I write is pretty much the way I speak.

Crafting a good metaphor is an art, much like signs. Work at it, it can be fun.

 

[iSign]

Bob, I find your perception of how well crafted your style of writing or speaking is to be laughable. Your writing seems to be a form of masturbation. (but at least someone is getting something out of it) Regardless how overblown your ego is, or how condescending you can manage to appear, don't flatter yourself to think I would "reach" to emulate your writing. I write only to convey a message.

Some people are too obtuse to justify restating a rather obvious point. You on the other hand seemed just too caught up in your own defensiveness to understand how placing hacked emulation software in the public domain would preclude your right to later say "this is not thievery" ...so I wasted a little more time to state the obvious in another way. While wasting time anyway, I gave it my own twist on the pie graph imagery you solicited. I guess some people choose not to see when they are wrong, so I'll let it be.

 

[Fred Weiss]

I've been allowing this to continue even though it is a clear cut case of hijacking a thread. At this point it hasn't made any contribution in some time towards furthering anyone's skills or knowledge about signmaking or how to cut from Adobe Illustrator.

Thread closed.