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vinyl, laminate, outgassing and alligator bubbles

crowntrophy24

New Member
Hey guys....installed lamination on clear "briteline" vinyl on lexan two months ago and am attaching a picture of what it look like now. The art is all black except for a little orange in the logo portion.

It looks like alligator skin throughout all of the black portion of the vinyl. The colored (orange) has smaller insignificant bubbles and the black has major issues. This sign does get full sun and is backlit with fluorescent lighting (albeit older lighting)

The other issue is the peeling up on the corner. Was told that calendered vs. caste is a discussion to have as well but this was such a PITA, I don't want to spend triple the money on caste vinyl is this is just an outgassing issue.

Any help from the collective brain trust would be helpful.

Regards,

Johnny

PS. The printed vinyl did sit for at least 24 hours before lamination
 

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Gino

Premium Subscriber
Wow, that's a huge mess, huh ??

Never skimp on materials is all I can say. However,it looks like you have more wrong than just bad materials.

Is this your first time doing this ??
 

d fleming

Premium Subscriber
Is this your first time doing this ??[/QUOTE]

Be my guess. Briteline on backlit lexan? Recipe for trouble. Also looks like it was laminated immed after printing possibly. Just a guess.
 

reQ

New Member
First of all, that vinyl is not really good vinyl.

But, you also would want your lexan to outgas if its new face you are making. After its cut to size, remove protective film an let it sit (i usually let it sit overnight)

Some people will disagree with me that polycarb needs to outgas, but i never ever have problem since i started doing it.
 

Rydaddy

New Member
Transclucent

Use a name brand Translucent (we use 3M 3630) media for lexan. Yes, it's more expensive. It's the correct product for the job. We apply with rapid tac, one of the few things we do that we don't apply dry.
 

Sign Works

New Member
"I don't want to spend triple the money on caste vinyl"

Forget about the materials for a moment ... Defective Mindset is your problem.

BTW ... it's "cast" vinyl.
 

reQ

New Member
"I don't want to spend triple the money on caste vinyl"

Forget about the materials for a moment ... Defective Mindset is your problem.

BTW ... it's "cast" vinyl.

It does not surprise me anymore, that so many people try to cut corners wherever possible. For me, it boggles my mind, that some one does not want to spend money on the right materials for the job.

Its like fixing everything with ducktape... but its cheap hey
 

Techman

New Member
those blisters have nothing to do with "outgassing". There is way too any blisters with too much volume to be outgassing. Outgassing is a myth.
Some will always blame outgassing for blisters on plastic.

The only way to avoid blisters on plastic is to either do it right with a properly sharpened squeegee,, or, flood the surface with a professional quality application fluid such as rapid tac. Thus floating the vinyl onto the surface.

That is an obviously bad install. That is all it is is. A bad install. If the vinyl is not applied with good techniques it will always blister on a super smooth surface like plastic. Yes it will blister even on powder coated aluminum as well. We had a guy who couldn't apply a layer of vinyl on the license plate aluminum panel if his life depended on it.. It would make others cringe when he would claim outgassing. It became a most hated word in the shop over it. He would apply it and blister. Another would apply it on the same panel and have a perfect outcome.

Same with plastic faces. One would apply and have a perfect outcome. Another would apply a layer and have pickle skin then scream GASSING.
 

crowntrophy24

New Member
thanks for the help?

Yes....I am a newbie and I do appreciate all the "flames" from the collective brain trust.

Must be amazing to be all knowing and feel great about putting me in my place.

Thanks for all the constructive tips, though, including the lexan tip...as to materials...this was recommended by Grimco
as my supplier and as a newbie, relied on them for advice.......however, if using 3M on lexan is the right way to do it, I am all for it. I do have Rapid Tac as well and will use it going forward.

Was hoping this forum would have more advice than miserable people, but I hope I provided a good outlet for you so you don't have to beat your wife or dogs.

Have a wonderful evening.
 

Techman

New Member
Was hoping this forum would have more advice than miserable people,

No one miserable here. You made a mistake. You have to deal with it. Just as all of us have dealt with the same problems at one time or another. You got an entire lifetime of advice. But you did not get affirmation over your theory that it was outgassing. Simply because outgassing is 98% a myth and just an excuse to cover a mistake.
 

reQ

New Member
Yes....I am a newbie and I do appreciate all the "flames" from the collective brain trust.

Must be amazing to be all knowing and feel great about putting me in my place.

Thanks for all the constructive tips, though, including the lexan tip...as to materials...this was recommended by Grimco
as my supplier and as a newbie, relied on them for advice.......however, if using 3M on lexan is the right way to do it, I am all for it. I do have Rapid Tac as well and will use it going forward.

Was hoping this forum would have more advice than miserable people, but I hope I provided a good outlet for you so you don't have to beat your wife or dogs.

Have a wonderful evening.


So was it freshly cut piece of polycarb? Or you reused old face?
 

jman

New Member
Dang what a mess that is!

Briteline is Grimco's house brand for anyone not familiar. It's either re-branded Avery or General Formulations vinyls. I know they do offer a laminate with and without UV protection. Maybe it was the one meant for indoor applications without the UV protection?

Even if it's cheaper calendered material it should last longer than 2 months. That stuffs like super glue most of the time.

I've done a handful of back lit faces and never had an issue with taking protective paper off and immediately installing vinyl. Maybe I've been just lucky...Who knows on that.

I say check the materials and see if you indeed did buy the laminate for indoor applications so you don't have anymore failures due to the wrong product for the job then get the correct material and re-install. Good luck!
 

signs20

New Member
Problem/Solution

Lexan (polycarbonate) is hygroscopic - that is, it absorbs water. The bubbles are due to sun warming the Lexan and forming vapor under the vinyl.

This can happen with any type of vinyl if the Lexan has been exposed to moisture and is not heated or baked to drive the water out before coating with vinyl. That is why Lexan that has just been baked (for forming a pan face) can be successfully coated with vinyl.

3M and Avery, and maybe others, have detailed writeups on this subject. We learned the hard way about 20 years ago.

Acrylic is non-hygroscopic and can be successfully coated with vinyl with no problems.
 

Techman

New Member
The bubbles are due to sun warming the Lexan and forming vapor under the vinyl.

That is a huge load of water under there. I do not believe it is water in the least. The volume of the blisters is way to high to be water or soap or alcohol..

Personally. I never ever had pickled skin after learning how to correctly apply vinyl apply to polycarbonate or acrylic.

Also, over the years I see so many posts that do not include all the data. Important facts are left out such as people using soap water, or some strange witches brew of a cleaner, or using rubbing alcohol, or mineral spirits to clean or any other of a multitude of errors.

There is more going on here than water vapor.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Yes....I am a newbie and I do appreciate all the "flames" from the collective brain trust.

Must be amazing to be all knowing and feel great about putting me in my place.

Thanks for all the constructive tips, though, including the lexan tip...as to materials...this was recommended by Grimco
as my supplier and as a newbie, relied on them for advice.......however, if using 3M on lexan is the right way to do it, I am all for it. I do have Rapid Tac as well and will use it going forward.

Was hoping this forum would have more advice than miserable people, but I hope I provided a good outlet for you so you don't have to beat your wife or dogs.

Have a wonderful evening.

Ya know, you just don't get it, do you ??
You and practically every other noobie coming here looking for answers. I'll probably get my butt reamed out for tbis, but it has to be said.

This place is set up like a school, with references to the various degrees throughout one's life under you name. Do we have all the answers ?? Nope, but we have about 99.9% of them and between all the BS and snarkisms, the answers are there. Now, you as the newest student in class, needs to learn, correct ?? Afterall, that's why you came here asking questions. You know jack about this industry or your present line of work...... or your hobby. You get answers in all kinds of forms, but you cop an attitude because it's been pointed out and confirmed over and over again, that you f*cked up. For crying out loud, deal with it. You failed....... and miserably so on this one on several counts.

I cannot speak for all the others, but many of us have been at this for years. When you see incompetence such as this, we think we are helping, not only you, but all the others who make the EXACT same mistake(s) time and time again. It ain't hard to recognize your situation. However, you wanna criticize those of us to whom you came to for help, for helping you and judge us as being whatever you conjure up in your nogan and put US in our place(s). Thank you for pointing out how smart you are on understanding our shortcomings.

It just astonished me, how much people wanna sidetrack learning a business........ a way of making a good living and not learn from their mistakes, but put the blame on others for being mean teachers or unsympathetic listeners. Oh yeah, if ya don't have anything nice to say, don't sayanything. You realize, when attending real school, if a good teacher used that mentality on all the kids, No one would get past first grade ?? Heck, maybe not out of preschool.

Maybe we could consider an enrollment plan. Sure, you can come to school and play with the other kids, but until you show some normal enthusiasm, you can't participate with the older students. You need to stay in your own grade and play with like minded school children. Once you pass into second grade, you can ask question of a certain level, until you graduate.

Sometimes, it just feels like I'm dealing with kids who just ran out of the candy store, into the smartphone store and think they're smart, cause the mommy & daddy told them so with this new phone.
 

crowntrophy24

New Member
additional info

Thanks again to everyone for their advise (sp) on my caste (sp) issue.
Constructive help is hoped for and some empathy for being a newbie and following "bad" guidance is hopeful.
Venting on a newbie is bad form, and I will wait, as suggested, until I get my masters in sign technology before I give advise (sp) for sure.

In thinking about some of the comments, there are a few things that were left out

As was mentioned, this was done over 2 months ago and just exhibited this problem.
This was brand new lexan and I did peel the face just before applying the vinyl
I used briteline IM 3205 clear vinyl and briteline OLUV laminate
In looking at the install, and some of the things that were not included were that I also "did" use alcohol, dawn, water blend for the wet app, as recommended.

And I just remembered that I also ran out of my briteline laminate after the 1st side and used the roll that came with my Royal Sovereign Laminator to laminate the 2nd side. Will check to see what laminate they sent and one side is definitely worse than the other so maybe the corner peeling is just the shrinking of non UV laminate.

And I appreciate learning about Lexan's hygroscopic characteristics...as I made my own sign with the same vinyl and laminate and have had no problems in over a year, the only difference is that my sign is acrylic, not Lexan

A perfect example of how discussions and problems should be handled in this forum.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed.
 

signs20

New Member
Re: Problem/Solution

Ignorance is not much of an excuse for bad advice.

The water vapor in the air can be absorbed into Lexan and cause this problem. This can be a real problem in hot, humid areas.

I suggest checking out the white papers published by 3M and Avery before guessing anymore. The problems with vinyl on Lexan are well known and understood, especially by the vinyl manufacturers.
 
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