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Vinyl on painted Wall
- Thread starter copythat
- Start date
Gino
Premium Subscriber
In all my years, latex is the absolute worse, especially if it's flat or near flat in sheen.
Any flat paint is tough to adhere to, so try to get a semi-gloss or higher sheen. If you're looking for type of paint.... oil is always my choice, but most schools won't allow that, so an acrylic enamel generally works well and you can get that custom colored to match just about anything.
Any flat paint is tough to adhere to, so try to get a semi-gloss or higher sheen. If you're looking for type of paint.... oil is always my choice, but most schools won't allow that, so an acrylic enamel generally works well and you can get that custom colored to match just about anything.
guitarguy69
New Member
View attachment Instruction Bulletin 5.37 Wall Preparation.pdf
View attachment Instruction Bulletin 5.37 Wall Preparation.pdf
Can't tell if the PDF is attached, if not,
View attachment Instruction Bulletin 5.37 Wall Preparation.pdf
let me know. I have a handy chart from 3M on surface preparation.
If not, P.M. and I'll send via email.
If not, P.M. and I'll send via email.
Stay away from Sherwin Williams and most Low/No VOCs
We've put thousands of square feet of cut vinyl and graphics (mostly 631 and Orajet) up over the years, and we've experienced first-hand the slowly-changing paint characteristics. Here's a list of general observations:
Any no-VOC/low VOC carries a risk, either now or at the next paint reformulation.
Sherwin Williams' ProMar400 (really common) was so bad we had to convince a major museum to stop using it, anywhere. You couldn't even tape up a graphic without having it fall off the wall soon after. They have soo many paint lines and most have some of their troublesome chemistry. And they change those formulations pretty frequently.
We did some half-arsed testing and determined that Benjamin Moore had (generally) the most vinyl friendly noVOC formulas. UltraSpec500 noVOC worked really well. Aura not so well, but still acceptable. Their cheap Superhide, Ultrahide and SuperSpec worked great.
Long story short: if it's pre-painted, hope they used a cheap/contractor's paint. If you paint it yourself, use Benjamin Moore.
We've put thousands of square feet of cut vinyl and graphics (mostly 631 and Orajet) up over the years, and we've experienced first-hand the slowly-changing paint characteristics. Here's a list of general observations:
Any no-VOC/low VOC carries a risk, either now or at the next paint reformulation.
Sherwin Williams' ProMar400 (really common) was so bad we had to convince a major museum to stop using it, anywhere. You couldn't even tape up a graphic without having it fall off the wall soon after. They have soo many paint lines and most have some of their troublesome chemistry. And they change those formulations pretty frequently.
We did some half-arsed testing and determined that Benjamin Moore had (generally) the most vinyl friendly noVOC formulas. UltraSpec500 noVOC worked really well. Aura not so well, but still acceptable. Their cheap Superhide, Ultrahide and SuperSpec worked great.
Long story short: if it's pre-painted, hope they used a cheap/contractor's paint. If you paint it yourself, use Benjamin Moore.
Part of the problem is that paint manufacturers are constantly trying to make paint that covers better than their competitors, is more scrubbable, dries quicker and stays within a reasonable price point for both professionals and DIYers. IMO, the number of additives and agents added to accomplish those qualities are probably the culprits.
I'd have to agree with the previous poster that in my experiences, the lower the quality and more mass produced a paint is, the better the odds of it sticking for some mysterious reason. I'm not sure what a simple solution is though.
Its hard to demand that only certain paints be used, but if the institution or business wants die-cut letters directly applied to the walls, its in their best interest to listen to our advice. I have had some luck applying even water based clearcoats with a matching sheen to walls where a particular art gallery or museum refused to change paint type but was insistent on die cut letters.
I'd have to agree with the previous poster that in my experiences, the lower the quality and more mass produced a paint is, the better the odds of it sticking for some mysterious reason. I'm not sure what a simple solution is though.
Its hard to demand that only certain paints be used, but if the institution or business wants die-cut letters directly applied to the walls, its in their best interest to listen to our advice. I have had some luck applying even water based clearcoats with a matching sheen to walls where a particular art gallery or museum refused to change paint type but was insistent on die cut letters.
knucklehead
New Member
It's mainly the new 'stain resistant' paints. They're adding either teflon, or silicon, in the mixture. It resist stains, and also vinyl. VOCs, don't really have much to do with it, that's just so they can claim the paints are 'greener'.. GO GREEN!
You are right, I typed too quickly!
If you paint it yourself and want a No VOC paint, use Benjamin Moore.
I'm amazed how little the vinyl industry has said about it. After way too much of my own research I found a tiny footnote on a single Oracal data sheet recommending against No VOC paints. The same data sheet on their own site didn't even have that reference.
Well, at least no one dies when a graphic fails.
If you paint it yourself and want a No VOC paint, use Benjamin Moore.
I'm amazed how little the vinyl industry has said about it. After way too much of my own research I found a tiny footnote on a single Oracal data sheet recommending against No VOC paints. The same data sheet on their own site didn't even have that reference.
Well, at least no one dies when a graphic fails.
It's the new VOC formulations more than ANYTHING else
Additives over the past years have affected adhesion, but not like this. These modern paints aren't even the same species.
Seriously, we put up some 4'x8' Orajet prints high up on a smooth, fully cured wall, and the next morning they had fallen off! Luckily we stopped applying at the second panel (of 40) because it didn't feel right. We had to use double-sided tape on the whole project.
That's why I spent $500 buying various brands of paint to finally figure this issue out, as there was so little info from vendors.
The following is most of the info you'll find....
From Orafal regarding Orajet (as of June this appeared only in this one guide)
Removable Wall Graphic User Guide
Wall graphics do not perform well when applied to zero VOC
latex paint coatings
It can be foundHERE.
From 3M (found this today while searching a great website called signs101.com):
ST. PAUL, Minn. – (April 14, 2014) – As paints low in volatile organic compounds (VOCs) become increasingly popular, installers are discovering that graphic films are not adhering to walls as reliably as they have done in the past
Info can be found HERE.
Additives over the past years have affected adhesion, but not like this. These modern paints aren't even the same species.
Seriously, we put up some 4'x8' Orajet prints high up on a smooth, fully cured wall, and the next morning they had fallen off! Luckily we stopped applying at the second panel (of 40) because it didn't feel right. We had to use double-sided tape on the whole project.
That's why I spent $500 buying various brands of paint to finally figure this issue out, as there was so little info from vendors.
The following is most of the info you'll find....
From Orafal regarding Orajet (as of June this appeared only in this one guide)
Removable Wall Graphic User Guide
Wall graphics do not perform well when applied to zero VOC
latex paint coatings
It can be foundHERE.
From 3M (found this today while searching a great website called signs101.com):
ST. PAUL, Minn. – (April 14, 2014) – As paints low in volatile organic compounds (VOCs) become increasingly popular, installers are discovering that graphic films are not adhering to walls as reliably as they have done in the past
Info can be found HERE.
knucklehead
New Member
I'll pass that info on to my buddy, he's a polymer chemist with Valspar.
Would the cleaning solution be a good idea for cut lettering? I suppose I could test it on my wall, but in general, will that 70/30 solution leave marks from where it was used to prepare the wall? I see how it doesnt matter on large printed wall graphics.
Also, would it be easier/cheaper to put a coat of cheap paint that it optimized for the job? I guess the downside would be the waiting time for the paint to fully cure..
Also, would it be easier/cheaper to put a coat of cheap paint that it optimized for the job? I guess the downside would be the waiting time for the paint to fully cure..
DonnellyArt
New Member
Curing time
Great posts here.
Toad - remember to allow ample cure time as well. Depends on the environment but I aim for two weeks.
Great posts here.
Toad - remember to allow ample cure time as well. Depends on the environment but I aim for two weeks.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Over the last 40 some years or so, I've painted over all kinds of paint in all kinds of conditions. While we're really only talking about die-cut vinyl over a painted interior wall, with most likely a latex base, I've put vinyl down in as little as 10 or 15 minutes and up to 2 or 3 months later. Generally speaking, we've encountered little to no problems, but I've seen walls react differently when a company claims they are using the same paint in all of their stores for years. Not sure if the painter
I wholeheartedly agree. Of course, we'd all love to be given ample time to allow paint to cure, but in over 25 years of doing exhibit/museum/art gallery work I can't count the number of times a museum, art gallery, etc. staffer has literally still been painting other walls as we were forced to apply graphics to newly painted walls because a new exhibit or show was opening the next day.
When the adhesion failures occur in those cases, all the wishful thinking goes out the window and it seems for such intelligent, detail oriented types, I've rarely had any success getting through to museum/gallery staffers about allowing proper drying time or on any other issues that might make our jobs easier for that matter. They are the ones with the fancy schmancy college degrees and we're just the sign schmucks.