Wall Mural Quote and Method

[Joe Diaz]

I certainly wouldn't do design work without having the job or at least having money down to cover the time it takes to do the design. So keeping that in mind, I think it's totally acceptable to simply quote a job without having the design first. If you take an artist that has experience painting murals, he or she will be able to come up with a design within a quoted price once they get the job. In other words you know how much work it would take to paint a pictorial vs lettering so you have a quoted price and you design accordingly. In fact, sometimes I like knowing what the budget is before doing design work. It makes the entire process go much smoother.

I think giving yourself a range like you did is a good way to go. You shoot for the low end, but you have some wiggle room if there is more back and forth than you planned. What you want to avoid is creating a design before you have the job (or without payment for the design work). Nothing stings more than doing all that design work then having the client pull out when they find out that murals are several thousands, not several hundreds.

Good Luck.

 

[equippaint]

I don't think there is anything wrong giving an estimate without a design. I would recommend tightening up the items that you can get a fairly accurate cost on without a design and line item it out. I'm not sure what you have in mind for rental equipment but it's really high. If you really wanted the job, it would be stupid to lose it because your gross over estimation on rental when everything else is competitive (if it is of course). This is something you can nail down. Pressure washing and priming also. If you're going to use a pounce pattern, you should have an idea of how long that will take to setup on the wall since the design that is on it wont have a huge bearing on that either. You know mobe and demobe costs too. You could even calculate with fair certainty paint costs at different coverage rates to tighten up your range more and make sure you are not underbidding. It's risky totally shooting from the hip or making educated guesses at the entire group. Limit the amount of guess work and you will limit your exposure. This seems 100% from the hip and it doesn't need to be.

 

[Johnny Best]

Looks like he wants $16,400.00 for the two walls wthout knowing what he is putting on the walls. He is not a designer so he has to hire that out. So I would say he is flying blind at this point and winging it and hoping for the best.
If he was an artist I would say giving a price without knowledge of what the customer wanted would not be that big of deal. But, from one of his previous posts on how to redo a 20 year old sign and outsourcing every step of the way, this wall job, seems to be out of the scope of his talent.
I am not a dentist but will take out your wisdom teeth for $16,000, and you need to give me a deposit and open your mouth wide to give me some wiggle room for my vice grips to latch on to that tooth, is that the wisdom tooth? Hopefully you won't change your mind and go to a real dentist and leave me hanging after I set up everything in my garage for this procedure.

 

[Gino]

Wow, I'm surprised, coming from the guy who can't paint a lick without a pounce pattern and projection. Of course it's acceptable, but not probable or brilliant in any business climate.

No one in their right mind would give a quote on something until they know what they are quoting.

You don't know if you're doing the Nike 'Swoosh', McDonald's arches or one of your beer girls. You can't tell me they all will take the same amount of time to prep for and finish.

 

[equippaint]

Looks like he wants $16,400.00 for the two walls wthout knowing what he is putting on the walls. He is not a designer so he has to hire that out. So I would say he is flying blind at this point and winging it and hoping for the best.
If he was an artist I would say giving a price without knowledge of what the customer wanted would not be that big of deal. But, from one of his previous posts on how to redo a 20 year old sign and outsourcing every step of the way, this wall job, seems to be out of the scope of his talent.
I am not a dentist but will take out your wisdom teeth for $16,000, and you need to give me a deposit and open your mouth wide to give me some wiggle room for my vice grips to latch on to that tooth, is that the wisdom tooth? Hopefully you won't change your mind and go to a real dentist and leave me hanging after I set up everything in my garage for this procedure.

Fair enough but we all have to start somewhere in order to get where we want to be. It sounds like this is either a new startup or an existing business that is trying to branch out and latching onto anything that comes his way. We've all been there and most of us have learned that it's better to not take large jobs way outside of your scope of talent. Start small and grow into it. I will give him some credit for the last job he posted since he seemed to do some research and learn for himself in order to complete the job. The biggest mistake it seemed was trying to sub out to day labor the things that he could have done himself. I respect the fact that he bought the PT posts first but continued looking for the proper posts and found them. Most hacks would have ran with the PT and never thought twice about it or walked from a halfway completed job.
As for the dentist analogy, there are horror stories out there of real licensed dentists doing things they had no business doing. Same with doctors.

 

[Joe Diaz]

So, to clarify... Everybody has their own methods and that's fine. Who am I to say what's the best way to go. I just know what works for us. It might work great for someone else, it might not. It's up to you all to find out what works best for you. Most of you have been around long enough and already know what works out best for you. I'm not going to give anyone a hard time for their methods... But at our shop we like to do things this way:

The vast majority of the time we are hired to paint a billboard or a mural, the client has an idea of what they want, but not a clear direction. It's our job to steer the project into the best outcome for everyone involved. We meet with the client. They might provide us with reference images and the copy, if not we help with that. Once we have had our meeting with the client, had a chance to survey the wall, especially the surface so we know how our paint will cover and how difficult a surface it might be to work on, and once we know the subject material and a general idea of the content that will go on the mural, but BEFORE we design anything, we develop a quote. If they don't like our quote and terms, they say "no thanks", and other than the time it took to meet with the client and quote the job, we aren't really out too much and we avoided the hours and hours it sometimes takes to design and layout a mural.

If they do agree to the quote, we collect a down payment and do the design work making sure that our design is something that can be completed within the budget that we agreed to. We at our shop are used to working within time constraints, so as time goes on you get better at knowing what you can and cannot do design-wise within the limited time you are given or have quoted.

Again, every shop has their own way of doing things, but we don't like doing design work for most projects especially murals without money down first. We charge for our design work, it's not used to sell the job or develop a quote.

I hope that clarifies my above statement.

 

[Billct2]

First I would think there would be some kind of idea from the client..I want my logo real big or I want a seascape with sailing ships...some kind of concept. With that I see no problem quoting the project as was done. Though from those numbers it sounds like it would be more of a art project than a simple design

 

[Gino]

Everyone DOES have their own way of quoting, approaching and producing all kinds of things. That was kinda my point. This OP had no direction and is/was not designing anything pertaining to this job and had no idea at all what was gonna happen. It's really hard to quote labor, supplies, rental of equipment and time for something like this without some sort of input. Like Billct2 mentioned, he'd at least like some direction. However, if you, Joe, or Billct2 or I were designing this job, we can and know how to steer the design in a manner that it will benefit everyone involved. Some designers don't do that and I'm not talking about raster vs. vector, but just the complexity of a design in general. Then, how do you make the rest of the numbers fit ??

Sure, as mentioned, everyone starts somewhere, but why start with no input ?? Teach this guy/gal how to discuss his/her needs with the customer and treat this a little more professionally. Just saying, it's gonna cost between $10,800 and $16,400 sounds a little odd. Cripes, if this thing is intricate and covers 2,200 sq ft as he stated, it could easily cost a lot more. If it's just some easy copy like pictured, it could cost far less then the $10,800. No one knows and none of us were given any information as such.

No one really designs things beforehand..... or at least finished drawings without some sort of commitment, but you can't make up numbers unless you have some instruction or guidance going in. We used to call them thumbnails and they worked just fine. Then you could give an up or down.... inbetween price.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Also, to the OP (or anyone new to mural painting that might come across this thread).. Don't be afraid to use the tools you are comfortable using and don't let others tear you down for your choice. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using patterns, projectors, the grid system, pencil and paper or computers, I've seen the best of the best in our industry using all those methods. If you're trying to make a living doing a job, then use the tools that will help you do the best work you can as efficiently as you can based on the skills you have at the time. You will have time to develop those skills and practice other methods and to learn how to use tools (old and new alike). I personalty have been working on painting techniques and experimenting with new and old ways to do my job. The learning never stops unless you listen only to narrow minded people that aren't capable of expanding their horizons. Don't let those people hold you back. Try it all, learn everything you can, develop new methods, improve on old ones, share your findings. You will be better off and you might have some fun too.

 

[Gino]

You should also attend one of Joe Diaz's Wall Dog Meets. He used to advertise them here on s101, but since his departure, not many know of them anymore.

Be prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with everything from total newbies to well seasoned masters on painting walls. You may even see his father there who is one of the finest handpainters you'll ever see in action. Just be prepared to travel a little.

 

[nolanola]

Thank you!
I appreciate your feedback.

I did not get the job.
I will post a picture of the updated wall in a couple weeks. Or months.
As somebody has noticed, the idea of the estimate "anywhere from $10000 to $16000" is to save time. It's not the only job I bid.
I should have provided more details: the client just bought the business and they want it all redone and I could visualize 20 hours on the design stage with 47 emails, three revisions etc.

 

[Gino]

It might be to your advantage, to not have gotten it. Don't worry, you'll have more chances for this sorta thing. What other details do you have besides not getting it ??

Do you know what the other bid was and how it was bid ??
There's nothing wrong with going back and asking the customer, so you don't make the same mistakes, what made them choose the other guy. Or, what did the other guy offer, or how.
It also, opens the door to the possibility of more work ..... or at least the chance for future bids with this guy.

 

[Johnny Best]

We've all been there on not getting jobs because of bids. Better luck next time.

 

[signbrad]

There's nothing wrong with going back and asking the customer, so you don't make the same mistakes, what made them choose the other guy

I agree. Many clients are willing to tell you what went into their decision if you ask. I have done this many times. Once I was told I didn't get the job because my price was too low—he figured I was too inexperienced and would not do a professional job.

It would be nice to see a picture of the finished wall and then see some posts from others with time estimates for labor.
There is no right or wrong price in my opinion—everybody's circumstances differ. Overhead, and consequently, shop rates, can vary wildly. Also, not everyone has the same sales acumen. A good sales person always seems to win a better price, even if his execution is not perfect. And a talented sign artist may struggle if he lacks sales ability.
Other things can affect a selling price. An artist's comfort level, for example. Many will charge more if they are doing something out of the ordinary.
The quality level can have an impact on price, too. I've known sign painters that double coated practically everything and triple coated reds. Others never double coated—ever.
And some artists are just faster than others. I have seen wall dogs back in the day who developed incredible speed and ability—using 2-inch cutters! I called them 'knock outs,' but I was secretly envious.
It took years for me to stop carrying my mahl stick up on scaffolding when working on a wall or highway board. But it prevented me from developing any real speed. It was also a cause for good-natured ridicule ("Do you use a mahl stick when you eat dinner, too?").

Brad

 

[M'Lord Oh]

Everyone DOES have their own way of quoting, approaching and producing all kinds of things. That was kinda my point. This OP had no direction and is/was not designing anything pertaining to this job and had no idea at all what was gonna happen. It's really hard to quote labor, supplies, rental of equipment and time for something like this without some sort of input. Like Billct2 mentioned, he'd at least like some direction. However, if you, Joe, or Billct2 or I were designing this job, we can and know how to steer the design in a manner that it will benefit everyone involved. Some designers don't do that and I'm not talking about raster vs. vector, but just the complexity of a design in general. Then, how do you make the rest of the numbers fit ??

Sure, as mentioned, everyone starts somewhere, but why start with no input ?? Teach this guy/gal how to discuss his/her needs with the customer and treat this a little more professionally. Just saying, it's gonna cost between $10,800 and $16,400 sounds a little odd. Cripes, if this thing is intricate and covers 2,200 sq ft as he stated, it could easily cost a lot more. If it's just some easy copy like pictured, it could cost far less then the $10,800. No one knows and none of us were given any information as such.

No one really designs things beforehand..... or at least finished drawings without some sort of commitment, but you can't make up numbers unless you have some instruction or guidance going in. We used to call them thumbnails and they worked just fine. Then you could give an up or down.... inbetween price.

I was hoping you could help me price my first paint project.

I'm working on preparing a bid for a painted wall sign. Just the name of the shop in 24" letters then faded to look like it was put up in the 1910s. How and where do I set the price? We're thinking pounce pattern then just going over it with a sander. It'll go on a brick wall that already has paint on it.

Any tips and pricing guides would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Johnny Best]

I think a wire brush would work better than a sander. Or us OneShot paints and they will fade so fast it will look they were done in 1910.
As far as pricing: After you get your materials priced out it is based on labor. Just set an hourly rate on how long it takes and price accordenly. Experience will set your prices as you move on in business.

 

[M'Lord Oh]

I think a wire brush would work better than a sander. Or us OneShot paints and they will fade so fast it will look they were done in 1910.
As far as pricing: After you get your materials priced out it is based on labor. Just set an hourly rate on how long it takes and price accordenly. Experience will set your prices as you move on in business.

Awesome. Thank you!

 

[nolanola]

I passed by a couple weeks ago and took some pictures of the wall.

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• nolanola
• Dec 13, 2017

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• nolanola
• Dec 13, 2017
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[Billct2]

Thanks for the follow up. I don't remember if I saw the design when this was first posted, but it's pretty simple so my quote would have been much less.
And this looks like some high school kids did it. I can't tell what method was used, the edges look like spray cans and the center of the strokes look like a brushed on "distressed" finish. With those colors and the look of the application if this wall gets any sun it is going to start looking pretty crappy before long.

 

[sardocs]

"if this wall gets any sun it is going to start looking pretty crappy before long."

I think it must have gotten a lot of sun already then.