Was wondering...

[rossmosh]

To hit a few points a lot of people miss:

1. Electricity prices vary a huge amount regionally. Much more than gasoline. Ignoring solar users, people can pay around $.06/kWh up to $.45/kWh hour. That's 7.5x more expensive. It changes the ROI a huge amount.

2. Trucks have the easiest break even point as long as you can home charge or charge at work. AAA says gas is $4.80/gal on average. Electricity prices on average are about $.16/kWh. A F-150 V8 gets 18mpg about. A F-150 Lightning gets about 2.4mi/kWh mixed. To go 100 miles, $26.67 gasoline and the EV would be $6.67. So over a year, assuming 15k miles, you're talking about $3000/year savings in fuel. If you drive a lot of highway miles or live in a cold climate, your savings will be less significant. Charging using commercial chargers you won't see any savings and it wouldn't surprise me if you spend more that way.

3. If you're a conservative individual worried about end of days or just wanting to be more self sufficient, an EV, at least in the short term, is 100% a better choice than a gasoline vehicle. You can build an off grid solar setup and be completely energy independent and fuel independent for not a lot of money. The new trend, which Ford has done with their F-150, is bi-directional charging, which has already been mentioned.

4. The actual charging unit and plug are literally the least of your concern. The money spent can and should be seen as an investment as in the next 10 years, there will be an expectation to have a 14-50 plug in every garage/driveway. Not to mention, there are many incentives to do the installation right now. Some companies are even paying to install the outlet.

5. One point I make to a lot of people is buying an EV right now means you're an early adapter. There are plenty of good points of being an early adapter but there are also many bad. With that said, there are many incentives right now to pay for the inconvenience. The $7500 tax credit covers quite a few inconveniences. Not to mention, I charge my vehicle for free most weeks. I've never gotten free gasoline before.

6. Frankly, the things people without EVs complain about are often not the things to complain about. For example: Charging infrastructure is a problem, but I'd argue a bigger problem is route mapping and verifying charger availability/condition. Only Tesla does this right (as of now). For a non-Tesla, you need anywhere between 2 to 8 different apps to go on a road trip. It's clunky and requires too much planning at times.

One thing I'll say is most people who buy an EV have no interest in going back to an ICE. The overall experience of driving an EV is better in most situations. With that said, there are outliers who buy EVs and switch back because EVs don't work for their lifestyle.

 

[GAC05]

I think it's an "upgrade" and not included in the base. But it's true, and neat!

If your vehicle is on the charger and power goes down... It'll auto switch you over to the Ford's battery. They say it lasts 3 days... But I don't know if that's 3 days of normal usage or limited - either way... It'd be nice, if you run out of juice in 2 days... Hop down to a super charger for a few hours and make it back before all your food spoils. We don't have outages too often, not enough to buy a real generator - but it's enough to lean me more in Ford's direction than Tesla's.

https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/features/intelligent-backup-power/

[Edit] looks like all lightning's can do it, you.just need the 80 amp charger that comes standard with the luxury ones... Or you can buy it yourself, for $1300... Not a bad price, but would be nice if they include it when you're buying a 70k truck.

You know, that cargo space in the front looks big enough to hold a 5 or 6k gas, diesel, or propane generator............

 

[Gino]

mojo...................

 

[rjssigns]

Completely apolitical fact based post.

Looking at the Ford Lightning as a shop truck and daily. Not likely to buy anytime soon though.
Here's the way I see it.
I buy an electric vehicle and get tax credits to offset the cost.
I buy the components for a DIY solar power system/battery bank ala Will Prowse and charge the truck.
Solar has gotten super cheap and you get tax breaks from state and federal government further reducing buy in.
For businesses "going green" there may be further incentives.

See where this is goin'?

Will Prowse does this exact thing and he is free from the grid and gas pumps.
For basic everyday transportation/shop truck this is genius.

Note: If you haven't watched any of Will's videos on YouTube I highly recommend them. No nonsense straight to the point content with DIY builds.
He tests everything he recommends "by putting megawatts through it" and if something changes for better or worse it gets posted.

 

[rossmosh]

I would strongly recommend looking into a grid-tied system before jumping into an off-grid system. The big problem with off-grid systems is the energy storage. Assuming you work during the day and charge during the night, you need a battery system large enough to charge your vehicle overnight. With a F-150, and 100 miles/day, you're talking between 40-60kWh of power. That's a lot of power and with rack mount batteries going for $1500 per 5kWh, you're talking about $12,000 - $18,000 in batteries alone.

If you have a grid-tied system with net metering, it is almost always the better choice.

 

[rjssigns]

I would strongly recommend looking into a grid-tied system before jumping into an off-grid system. The big problem with off-grid systems is the energy storage. Assuming you work during the day and charge during the night, you need a battery system large enough to charge your vehicle overnight. With a F-150, and 100 miles/day, you're talking between 40-60kWh of power. That's a lot of power and with rack mount batteries going for $1500 per 5kWh, you're talking about $12,000 - $18,000 in batteries alone.

If you have a grid-tied system with net metering, it is almost always the better choice.

Will is charging his Tesla using a rack with five or six 5kw batteries. IIRC the whole system is around $13K and that's before any state or federal tax incentives. Can't remember what system he uses for his shop and two homes. He even data mines with an off grid system. Like I said his videos are well worth the watch. Always up to date and he never hides pricing or where he buys components.

Relevance: My BIL runs an F150 and spends an average $130 a week on fuel. Wouldn't take long to amortize a solar charging rig even without incentives.

 

[jochwat]

I believe the chip shortage is planned, I think they have cut it back to force electric.

Yeah, that seems accurate... seeing that electric vehicles use about TEN TIMES the amount of computer chips than gas vehicles use.

 

[rossmosh]

Will is charging his Tesla using a rack with five or six 5kw batteries. IIRC the whole system is around $13K and that's before any state or federal tax incentives. Can't remember what system he uses for his shop and two homes. He even data mines with an off grid system. Like I said his videos are well worth the watch. Always up to date and he never hides pricing or where he buys components.

Relevance: My BIL runs an F150 and spends an average $130 a week on fuel. Wouldn't take long to amortize a solar charging rig even without incentives.

I'm familiar with his videos. They only choose to talk about non-grid tied systems and it's important to remember he lives in Vegas, works from home, and gets most of his stuff for free or cheap. If he buys something, it's a business expense and he likely makes it back and then some from affiliate links and just Youtube revenue.

If you can do a grid-tied system with net metering, it's 100% a better financial decision and frankly a lot more functional. Now not everywhere has good net metering agreements. Some areas don't even have it. In those circumstances, battery storage makes sense. But if you can grid-tie with net metering, you're ROI is going to be MUCH sooner. Also grid-tied systems don't preclude you from having battery backup too. You can do both. You just don't need as many batteries.

 

[Scotchbrite]

I don't care for any new vehicle. I'd rather spend $600+ a month upgrading and putting gas into my 73 Chevy C10 that I hold the title to as opposed to making a payment to the bank. Make me a $3000 drop in electric drive train and battery pack for that C10, and I might consider doing that. But not surprisingly, I like the sound of a V8, so an electric vehicle isn't that appealing in that regard.

Also why do they keep making work trucks taller and taller? It's a hell of a lot easier to load and unload my old pickup.

 

[Stacey K]

I don't care for any new vehicle. I'd rather spend $600+ a month upgrading and putting gas into my 73 Chevy C10 that I hold the title to as opposed to making a payment to the bank. Make me a $3000 drop in electric drive train and battery pack for that C10, and I might consider doing that. But not surprisingly, I like the sound of a V8, so an electric vehicle isn't that appealing in that regard.

Also why do they keep making work trucks taller and taller? It's a hell of a lot easier to load and unload my old pickup.

Ditto. I have a '16 Caravan with only 70k miles on it, and it's my personal/work vehicle. It's been paid off for several years, only perform regular maintenance on it and it's in excellent condition. My oldest has a '96 F150 and had a almost head on accident on the highway with his '95 F150 - no injuries. Truck was totaled but if you buy (don't quote me on the years) a F150 between like '95-'99 everything on them is the same so all the parts are interchangeable, so that worked out really good for his second vehicle. My youngest has an '06 F250 and a 2005 VW. Everything was paid in cash and none of our vehicles have ever been to a shop, we fix it all ourselves. My BF also -- all his vehicles, tractors and boys vehicles, all paid in cash and never been to a shop. He had a loan on his Silverado "Betsy" for a couple years but paid it off quickly. My waverunner, the 4 wheeler, all 5 snowmobiles also - all very well maintained at home, all paid in cash except the waverunner, loan on that a couple years when I bought it new.

It's very nice not having any vehicle payments and being able to repair and maintain everything ourselves. I have to think we make less of a footprint since we so seldom create any "demand". With 7 of us we could all 7 be creating a demand for 7 new vehicles every 2 years and 5 new snowmobiles, waverunners, 4 wheelers, etc. --- Like almost ALL of our friends!!! New vehicles every 1-2 years, new snowmobiles every 2 years... how much of a footprint per item is it to build?

So to answer the OP questions, no, right now I have no plans to buy an EV or really anything new LOL

 

[Signs101Admin]

 

[jochwat]

I'm not a singing, dancing froot loop for Tesla, but I do enjoy seeing their technological advancements. So, really, there's no comparison so far in the number of Tesla fires compared to, well... these (and they're not all gas-powered case, but most of 'em are):

Cars Notorious for Catching Fire

 

[GAC05]

I'm not a singing, dancing froot loop for Tesla, but I do enjoy seeing their technological advancements. So, really, there's no comparison so far in the number of Tesla fires compared to, well... these (and they're not all gas-powered case, but most of 'em are):

Cars Notorious for Catching Fire

As part of the advanced self-driving tech, Musk can have them preprogrammed to auto-drive to the nearest burn center any time the cabin temp goes over 200 degrees.

 

[rjssigns]

I'm familiar with his videos. They only choose to talk about non-grid tied systems and it's important to remember he lives in Vegas, works from home, and gets most of his stuff for free or cheap. If he buys something, it's a business expense and he likely makes it back and then some from affiliate links and just Youtube revenue.

If you can do a grid-tied system with net metering, it's 100% a better financial decision and frankly a lot more functional. Now not everywhere has good net metering agreements. Some areas don't even have it. In those circumstances, battery storage makes sense. But if you can grid-tie with net metering, you're ROI is going to be MUCH sooner. Also grid-tied systems don't preclude you from having battery backup too. You can do both. You just don't need as many batteries.

As far as ROI being faster with grid tie I don't see it. A guy a few blocks away is "net zero". He gets a check for a whopping $100 from the utility every year. Sometimes nothing.
I discussed it with him he said the only reason he grid tied is because he likes to go to Florida for a week or two during the winter.
His system is incredible and uses solar in combination with a wood fired boiler. Also has a Lister diesel that runs on veggie oil just in case although he admits he's never had to use it.

Incentives for grid tie systems are also starting to go away. The corporations that generate grid electricity see the surge in solar as a bad thing and lobby against it.

Conclusion:
I live in Wisconsin, work from home and will have to buy my way in to energy independence. Nothing is getting cheaper and we are at the whim of the energy producers.
Bringing up what Will gets for free, where he lives and does or does not do is irrelevant to the discussion. It matters what I can and will do.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Musk had planned obsolescence in mind when he designed his self crashing car of the future. Take that Steve Jobs, you think you're so smart with that Iphone you designed to die every 3 years. In case you missed the last episode of As the Billionaires Turn, Musk has soured on Steve Jobs and they are no longer pals.

 

[Scotchbrite]

A concern I have with solar and electric cars is it creates even more dependence on China.

 

[Stacey K]

From what I am reading, if you want to be "off or on the grid" it's almost a part time job figuring out how to hook all this up and keep it maintained? With the exception of the electric vehicle.

Unless people can hire out the solar panel install and maintenance, I don't see many people making the effort to go green. Most of the young people I know won't cut their own grass much less maintain any kind of solar system. Even for us since we have a wood burning furnace, it's A LOT of work cutting enough wood in fall for winter. (I don't really help but I watch from the window and it looks like a lot of work LOL)

 

[GAC05]

I don't really help but I watch from the window

A good leader knows how to delegate tasks

 

[Notarealsignguy]

From what I am reading, if you want to be "off or on the grid" it's almost a part time job figuring out how to hook all this up and keep it maintained? With the exception of the electric vehicle.

Unless people can hire out the solar panel install and maintenance, I don't see many people making the effort to go green. Most of the young people I know won't cut their own grass much less maintain any kind of solar system. Even for us since we have a wood burning furnace, it's A LOT of work cutting enough wood in fall for winter. (I don't really help but I watch from the window and it looks like a lot of work LOL)

Off the grid setups would cost a fortune to maintain. If people were so concerned with the green crap, they wouldn't buy gigantic houses that need to be heated and cooled or would suck it up and live without the A/C, take cold showers and hang their clothes out to dry. Running lights, tv and a refrigerator are relatively cheap. It's the other stuff that bites. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against renewables at all but its double talk. People don't want to conserve anything, they just want to find ways to feel better about and continue with bad habits.

 

[rossmosh]

As far as ROI being faster with grid tie I don't see it. A guy a few blocks away is "net zero". He gets a check for a whopping $100 from the utility every year. Sometimes nothing.
I discussed it with him he said the only reason he grid tied is because he likes to go to Florida for a week or two during the winter.
His system is incredible and uses solar in combination with a wood fired boiler. Also has a Lister diesel that runs on veggie oil just in case although he admits he's never had to use it.

Incentives for grid tie systems are also starting to go away. The corporations that generate grid electricity see the surge in solar as a bad thing and lobby against it.

Conclusion:
I live in Wisconsin, work from home and will have to buy my way in to energy independence. Nothing is getting cheaper and we are at the whim of the energy producers.
Bringing up what Will gets for free, where he lives and does or does not do is irrelevant to the discussion. It matters what I can and will do.

As I said, you should look into net metering. If it's available, it's typically the right choice, but in states like Wisconsin, based on a google search, the rules are all over the place due to a lack of regulation.

As for your neighbor, net zero is different than net metering. Net zero basically means he produces enough power to power his home. Net metering is the idea that you can sell excess power to the power company.

Lastly, you're not actually calculating ROI or break even points. In a grid tied system, you don't need batteries, which are extremely expensive relative to everything else in a solar system. Adding on $15k to your solar build is going to make your return take more time. That's just simple math.