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What the hell is wrong with us?

Colin

New Member
Here's an example:

an email I got from someone I solicited last week:



Hi Colin,

I am looking for some signs to get done up in the next month or so....

What I am looking for is a print on that outdoor plastic stuff that looks exactly like corrugated cardboard. Most realtor signs are done with this product. I want it to last, I have a Landscaping company and my guys are hard on my stuff.

I would probably want at least 5 double sided signs at first and maybe more if the price was better.

I have been shopping around and already had a place in mind that I know would do a good quality job for a fair price, but since you sent me that email I thought I would see what your prices are like.

Can you do this kind of printing?

Let me know if you are interested


I was about to reply to him about how shopping for the lowest price is generally not the best way to approach signage needs, and that the design aspect is more important, but I knew that he wouldn't listen, so I simply asked him for more details (size, qty etc) in order to work out a price.

Haven't heard back.​
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Actually Colin…. it’s you that needs to change the prescription on those horse blinders you call business tactics.

Whether our shop is busy or not…. has nothing to do with what you do up there in your neck of the woods.

It appears you don’t have a clue as to what your local market will bear and want people to pay you $75 for a sign worth about $50. Try to put this into perspective because I’m trying to be nice and not call you out.

As I said, that sign is only worth about $35 to $50 just about anywhere in the free world. There are those that will get $245. for that sign and then there are those that will get $35. for the same thing. The shop that priced it out at $53 is probably about spot on, while you appear to be scalping your customers and as you pointed out…. you have literally no overhead… so you could get $15 for that sign and still be more than doubling your costs.

You are the shop without a minimum $20 is not a minimum, but a stab at trying to look professional, but failed.

I’m not failing anywhere, but you don’t seem to grasp that the customer is only picking from shop A or B based upon price because you’ve failed to show him why you are worth more… regardless of your shop’s location. You don’t have to be downtown in a retail location to get good prices…. Your wares will dictate what you get paid and if you can’t get your worth… well, you suffer and then whine about price.

Once we all have printers and substrates coming out the wazoo, there’s not much difference between you, me and the man on the moon.
Why can there be three Italian Pizza shops at one intersection and they all flourish ??
Simple…. they all specialize in something and have their select followers. All you’re doing is trying to get shop B or C’s customers by asking what the other guy has and trying to beat him up on price instead of taste or quality.

In this equation, I would be a fine restaurant, while you’re a take out shop, but because I make better meals, serve booze and have ideal qualities for a nice sit down meal…. I’m gonna appeal to the same crowd you want, but can’t get. Why ?? Cause I have standards that they can count on and you’re all over the place because times are tough, wife isn’t working, the kids are in school and you have to make ends meet. Well Colin…. no one wants to hear your problems or even see them, so you’re gonna shrivel up, unless you change your attitude and at least look and act the part. Get a piece of the pie…. go for 90%..... 80% , but don’t go for the gold if you don’t even have it. Don’t be a bullchitter. People see through that stuff quickly and then your reputation will suffer overnight.

You just got that great printer/cutter…… make a big splash with all that free media ya got and do some advertising and try to land some good accounts. Don’t wait for them to come to you…. you go look for the accounts you want and soon you won’t need to drop 30% and 40% in order to land a job. Cultivate and prep your customer list with the accounts you want…. not the ones the other shop doesn’t mind losing….. but then, what do I know…. I just can‘t see your point for some reason. C’mon, you can do better. Try not thinking about your next response and look for some real work. It’s out there…. even up there. I know because there are a lot of busy Canadian shops that I talk to all the time.
 

Ken

New Member
Very interesting thread...
A Mom and Pop studio (That would be me)...We TRY to optimize costs vs. billing.
We also need to have income....not cash flow.....
There are businesses in this area that actually DO SUPPORT local business....If not for that..I could not continue in this field... Of course, there are those who only look at the bottom line....and they source their signage from Vancouver..Seattle, Portland..Calgary...
When they pay the shipping..might as well just have shopped at home.
In my early days...I did lowball pricing...GUILTY....
It's just that..I see quite a bit of work going to "outsiders"...oh, maybe charging 50% less than my quotes..but I will continue my "reasonable pricing"....If all clients go for the cheap stuff..I'm F'd.
One thing to seriously consider is too diversify your income stream.
I DO NOT depend upon sign/design income as my only source.
You could have a part-time job..you could have a rental house......you could have a stock trading account..(carefull with that!//lol)..you could babysit childeren in your home..(Not for me ..thanks)
What I am getting at..is diversification of income.
Not all eggs in one basket.
Think about it.
Cheers!
Ken
 

CentralSigns

New Member
Gino has a very valid point. Your price was dropped by 30% to get that job. If I was a businessman shopping for signs and seen that, I would be wondering. That is a huge drop especially if the same customer paid the full price before. Perhaps he got your name from a good customer of yours and that customer finds out the price dropped that much, how would he feel. Often a group of customers that use a certain business, are linked somehow and talk to one another, somewhere in common. If they do talk, you just started a fire sale. Just thinking is all !!

How will you lift your prices if he returns wanting more, he will think your gouging him, if you go back to your regular prices. It takes a long time to raise prices and only seconds to kill them or fire sale them. It would take several years to justify a 30% price increase, inflation usually sits at 5% a year.
 

Colin

New Member
....you have literally no overhead…

OMG. I have all of the same overhead as any other shop (materials, tools, shop supplies, business licence, truck, phone, internet, advertizing, insurance, etc etc etc) just not the monthly rent, but even then........my 700 sq. ft. shop wasn't free. I built it and paid for it.




You just got that great printer/cutter…… make a big splash with all that free media ya got and do some advertising and try to land some good accounts. Don’t wait for them to come to you…. you go look for the accounts you want and soon you won’t need to drop 30% and 40% in order to land a job.
C’mon, you can do better. Try not thinking about your next response and look for some real work.

Once again you assume and conclude that I haven't been doing just that! The fact is I've been working very hard lately at trying to drum up work in a myriad of ways. The local economy is simply not very active, and an oversaturation of shops per capita.

I don't feel like adressing your other abrassive, unsympathetic comments.
 
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Gino

Premium Subscriber
Well, too bad for you.... I'm giving this one to ya and if you don't like it...... tough.


Okay…. Wanna know what’s wrong with that scenario ??

Your very last sentence……
Haven't heard back.

You shouldn’t be contacting people and then depending on the internet and your good looks to bring in orders. Be aggressive. You got a bite , now go use your selling powers, expertise and knowledge to land this baby. Call him, set up a meeting for 15 minutes or so and take some of your samples along….. and explain to him how you are a better fit for his company than the others. Your background, your state-of-the-art equipment, your skills and design abilities which are far ahead of your competition. You’re not knocking them, but you have better what it takes and can stretch his advertising dollar…. and in the end, he’ll have more punch for his buck with your great signs and together, the two of you will make a good team for each others companies. Educate him and sell him. Don’t think for a moment just waiting for some guy to e-mail you is all it takes in this world… especially with all the lowballers out there. You need to get his head out of the gutter and up on the curb so he can make an educated decision with his best interests in your hands. You can’t let him think or stammer. Have a reason, an answer or whatever you need to say ready at the end of his next sentence. Tell him to give you your signed quote and deposit so you can get started immediately. Unless you come across as someone that is making this chit up on the fly…. guaranteed he’ll give you a deposit…. and you’ll have gained a good customer.

So, in answering his last questions…… just tell him… we sure can do that kind of work and are leading the area right now with our craftsmanship and competitive prices. Remember, I can always deliver and the quality is the best and with really good prices. Remember, having good service and top notch quality, well, you can’t have all three, but the first two are what makes and breaks your business. Competitive pricing is just a sweet third.


After seeing your last post, Colin.... I guess I kinda take back most of this because you seem to have the whole thing figured out already and that's good for you. Perhaps someone else willing to at least listen can use this stuff and you'll just prove to me I still don't have a clue as to why you can't sell a $50 sign.

Sorry for trying to help, but when someone just clams up with so much pent up hostility.... well I hope you make it work.
Good luck with your wife's problem.
 

williaty

New Member
I’m not failing anywhere, but you don’t seem to grasp that the customer is only picking from shop A or B based upon price because you’ve failed to show him why you are worth more… regardless of your shop’s location.
Let me preface this by saying I'm coming from a non-sign small-business background (I've just moved into the sign business).

While I agree with a lot of what you posted there (I think most of your critique of the OP is spot on), you're missing the point on this statement. There are an ever growing number of people who simply don't care about quality. In my other business, I take a great deal of time and go to a great deal of effort to educate my customers about the differences between high and low quality work because customers who understand that are generally better customers and more willing to pay a realistic price for the service or product. However, I have also, far too often, gotten a response of "Oh, yes, I absolutely see what you're saying and I absolutely can see that what you're suggesting is a higher-quality option. However, I don't want/need the higher quality, the only thing that matters is how cheap it is."

5 years ago, I had maybe 10% of the people who called for a quote saying that they'd knowingly choose poor quality if it meant getting a lower price. I tended to suggest a couple of other shops that I knew cut corners to those people. When the recession hit in full force, that dropped to 0%. The only people I got were people who wanted it done right regardless of the cost. I think the cheap people were just plain not buying. As things started to recover, that number has been steadily rising. I'd say that 60-70% of new business possibilities are flat out saying they don't care how bad it is, it just has to be cheap.

So, Gino, where I'm going with this is that you can no longer expect educating the customer to convince them of the value of better quality. Sure, if you do it right, you'll convince them your way/product/service is better quality. That no longer logically leads to them concluding it's worth the extra money to them.

When you're getting enough work from people who want to pay for quality, it's an easy decision: send the other people packing. However, when enough people in your market make the switch to knowingly turning down quality to get a lower price, you're going to have to make the decision on wither or not you want to keep your doors open.
 

SightLine

║▌║█║▌│║▌║▌█
I just had a rather BIG traditional sign company who is 1 state away from us contact me wanting to know if I could pull off installing about 300SF of frosted vinyl on a local storefront for them, tomorrow morning because they are not really a vinyl shop and their sign guys on site are not comfortable with that. I quoted a very reasonable $725.

They pretty much told me if we cannot do it for $500 they will have to find someone else. :rolleyes: Good luck finding a company with competent installers willing to drop everything and run out with 12 hours notice to go install 300SF of full coverage frosted vinyl on glass for $1.66 per SF for your big corporate client.... :banghead: It's not going to be my company, that much is for sure.
 

Williams Signs

New Member
Gino here is what I am competing with. It aint hard making my claims.
 

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Gino

Premium Subscriber
Let me preface this by saying I'm coming from a non-sign small-business background (I've just moved into the sign business).

While I agree with a lot of what you posted there (I think most of your critique of the OP is spot on), you're missing the point on this statement. There are an ever growing number of people who simply don't care about quality. In my other business, I take a great deal of time and go to a great deal of effort to educate my customers about the differences between high and low quality work because customers who understand that are generally better customers and more willing to pay a realistic price for the service or product. However, I have also, far too often, gotten a response of "Oh, yes, I absolutely see what you're saying and I absolutely can see that what you're suggesting is a higher-quality option. However, I don't want/need the higher quality, the only thing that matters is how cheap it is."

5 years ago, I had maybe 10% of the people who called for a quote saying that they'd knowingly choose poor quality if it meant getting a lower price. I tended to suggest a couple of other shops that I knew cut corners to those people. When the recession hit in full force, that dropped to 0%. The only people I got were people who wanted it done right regardless of the cost. I think the cheap people were just plain not buying. As things started to recover, that number has been steadily rising. I'd say that 60-70% of new business possibilities are flat out saying they don't care how bad it is, it just has to be cheap.

So, Gino, where I'm going with this is that you can no longer expect educating the customer to convince them of the value of better quality. Sure, if you do it right, you'll convince them your way/product/service is better quality. That no longer logically leads to them concluding it's worth the extra money to them.

When you're getting enough work from people who want to pay for quality, it's an easy decision: send the other people packing. However, when enough people in your market make the switch to knowingly turning down quality to get a lower price, you're going to have to make the decision on wither or not you want to keep your doors open.


will.... after looking at your profile, I have no idea what you're doing here. However, since you are indeed here, I can only say this.... once you stop educating your potential customers, you will begin to fail. Today's methods are completely different from those of years ago. Years ago selling signs and truck lettering was a breeze. Today, you need to step up and show what you're made of and sell yourself.... then your shop and what you can produce.

If one uses the three tier method of selling, you can always go down in price, but don't you want to at least show people what they CAN get for a few dollars more.... how if they stretch their dollars a little it might be more cost effective to do X, Y or Z ??

Maybe I'm lucky and have very talented people working for us and step in chit and come out smelling like a rose, but none of it's by chance. I don't wait for it to happen. I'm constantly sending things out, contacting old customers e-mailing, mailing and going to mixers and township meetings, rubbing elbows with people in the limelight and with the shakers. One of our recent accounts came by way of drinking at the bar and this one guy and I get to talking as we were both chit-faced and loose. He told me where his kid worked and I asked for a meeting with him and he said... give me a card. The following week I had a meeting with this guy and since that meeting, now we do all the work for this township, letter the police cruisers and trucks, the ambulances and most any signs they need in the township..... playground signs, local advertisements and so much more. No matter how old or large you get... you have to keep shaking those bushes.

If you or anyone else is only getting people that want the lowest price and that's their only concern... you are looking in all the wrong places for customers. You need some lessons on how to present yourself and look successful.




William.... no it ain't hard making your claims, so by the looks of that one..... it's time for you to change your environment. Don't wait for this stuff to walk in and fall in your lap. Go look for what you want. You make it happen. Sure, it's easy to say, but if you try two or three nice businesses a week and spend three or four hours a week.... within no time.... you will land one. The odds are in your favor. After that, you'll start building your confidence and land another.... and another and so on. If you all accept this mentality that it jut ain't possible, you wont get it. You're just prolonging the agony, so you might as well sell your chit now and find something where you can sit at home and do nothing.

I mean, really, this isn't hard to do. I was always a letterer and pictorial artist. I worked and made money for other shops until people started asking me to do their work on my own. Well, I didn't take work away from any of my employers, but I did start reaching out on my own and started by landing a realtor. After that, I reached out to other realtors, then contractors and plumbers and whatever I could find. Then word of mouth kicked in, but once you hit a certain volume, you still have to pound the pavements and make things happen. Contacts go away, people change jobs and businesses move, so you have to stay on your toes. After having enough people to do the work, I started selling and quite honestly I hate it, but someone has to do it and for some reason.... I'm good at it. Once you start closing 60% or more of your jobs... you raise your prices and you keep doing that and you stay at a level and don't look to go backwards. You can if you want, but why do it unless someone touches your feelings. We're far from a huge shop, but we do a fair amount of work in a year's time for being only a few guys and some part-timers. I have a responsibility to give them a check every week pay some mortgages and still have money left over to have fun..... :Oops: and :bushmill:
 

williaty

New Member
will.... after looking at your profile, I have no idea what you're doing here.
Heh, as I said, I'm just moving into the sign business. I'm here to learn about the sign-specific stuff I now need to know. I've been in business for while, just not doing this.

once you stop educating your potential customers, you will begin to fail.
I absolutely agree with this and I think I made that clear in my original post. You have to accept, though, that there's a growing market of customers that, even when you educate them, simply don't care.


If one uses the three tier method of selling, ... you have to keep shaking those bushes.
Do you realize you've repeatedly implied in this thread that anyone having a different experience than you has no idea how to do business? It's quite patronizing. People may have different experiences than you because they work in a different culture than you do. Heck, I floated between two stores in the same chain (again, non-sign) in the same town years back and the two stores had to be completely different just to best serve their customer base. One was all cash, all low-to-mid level stuff. The other was all credit card, all mid-to-high level stuff. I started at the fancier store and always assumed the other store was doing it wrong because their average invoice was so small. Then I started working at both stores and realized the markets they were in were entirely different. They were less than 12 miles apart. You can't assume that someone is bad at business because their region is different than yours.


If you or anyone else is only getting people that want the lowest price and that's their only concern... you are looking in all the wrong places for customers. You need some lessons on how to present yourself and look successful.
As I said in my original post, I refer those people to shops more suited to their interests. Did you actually read my post before concluding I was wrong?
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Heh, as I said, I'm just moving into the sign business. I'm here to learn about the sign-specific stuff I now need to know. I've been in business for while, just not doing this.

I will also say again.... I don't see it, but you're here so I deal with it. You're being rather vague about your reason for being here, but time will tell. Off topic..... what area are you looking to jump into ??


I absolutely agree with this and I think I made that clear in my original post. You have to accept, though, that there's a growing market of customers that, even when you educate them, simply don't care.

I really don't have to accept what you lay down here as gospel, just as you say I wasn't listening to you, when in fact... you are again assuming things are the same when you're really comparing two different industries.
So, I don't catch your drift that I'm speaking in circles, but you aren't. What's good for the goose is good for the gander or is it a one-way street ??



Do you realize you've repeatedly implied in this thread that anyone having a different experience than you has no idea how to do business? It's quite patronizing. People may have different experiences than you because they work in a different culture than you do. Heck, I floated between two stores in the same chain (again, non-sign) in the same town years back and the two stores had to be completely different just to best serve their customer base. One was all cash, all low-to-mid level stuff. The other was all credit card, all mid-to-high level stuff. I started at the fancier store and always assumed the other store was doing it wrong because their average invoice was so small. Then I started working at both stores and realized the markets they were in were entirely different. They were less than 12 miles apart. You can't assume that someone is bad at business because their region is different than yours.

Actually, when writing, I'm not being very particular about patronizing anyone in particular. It's a bad habit, but one that isn't necessary if one wants to ask questions and then demand how the answers come in. Pick and choose what you need, if anything at all and get on with it. Don't worry if my tactless answers offend you or someone else. Read for what is there and if nothing... move on. If you can use it... be my guest. In addition I'm not assuming a thing. I'm merely speaking of basic business policy that work for everyone across the board. It's up to you to put the comma and decimal points in the correct position. I can't see or hear what you or anyone else does, unless they get specific, which isn't very healthy in a place like an 'Open Forum'. So, I would imagine that having two or more stores at 12 miles apart is no big thing..... if you did your homework. You never mentioned if this took you a few weeks to figure out or several years. Had this been my two stores, I would've made some serious studies and not just let things to chance. Heck, I don't even know if these were YOUR stores or if you were just an employee or whatever ??


As I said in my original post, I refer those people to shops more suited to their interests. Did you actually read my post before concluding I was wrong?

I don't remember saying you were wrong. I was trying to help you find some solutions to your not finding the people spending the big bucks. I said you are looking in the wrong places. Please try not to put words in my mouth. I don't have any problems with reading or comprehension.




:thankyou:
 

RobbyMac

New Member
If you or anyone else is only getting people that want the lowest price and that's their only concern... you are looking in all the wrong places for customers. You need some lessons on how to present yourself and look successful.

This pretty much says it all right there.
 

Kentucky Wraps

Kentucky Wraps
My employee (who's been in the industry before I was born & was a sign "painter") was just telling me yesterday, he remembers that pricing by the square foot was not done back then. You had to figure out how much time it would take and base it on the skill & time for the quality they want. If they said they want to pay only X amount of dollars he would do it faster with less quality type...(no serifs, highlights, etc).

He said at one time sign Painters in Las Vegas tried actually charging by how many impressions the signs would have per day. SO basically the "value" of the sign set the "price" of the sign. Imagine that. LOL It would be awesome. . . but a vehicle wrap would be impossible to quote in that case. What if they lied and said..they were just gonna keep it parked out back?
 

OldPaint

New Member
My employee (who's been in the industry before I was born & was a sign "painter") was just telling me yesterday, he remembers that pricing by the square foot was not done back then. You had to figure out how much time it would take and base it on the skill & time for the quality they want. If they said they want to pay only X amount of dollars he would do it faster with less quality type...(no serifs, highlights, etc).

the old guy is sorta right. WE WHO do paint, ALWAYS......figured, amount of time(some where a lot faster then others)how DETAILED they wanted the work, the more detail the HIGHER THE SQ FT PRICING!!! and yea ive done a lot "slap up, loose lettering" for those who didnt want to spend a lot. BUT.......like i said some of us could work a lot faster then others. SQ FT was a BASIS..for a WINDOW OF THE COST to do the job. still is in my book.
example: lady called me one day 3-4 miles from me. wanted her name painted on a window of her small shop. so rather then QUOTE a price on the phone i went there and looked at the window.
it was a 4'x5'. this is 20 sq ft. @ $5.00 sq ft(1986)it was within her budget and QUICK MONEY for me. i got out the sketch pad, pencil, did a loose script of her name, added a drop shadow, and a small painted graphic of a couple of the tool she used. time involved, 10 minutes. she liked what she saw said ok paint it!!! opened my trunk, got out my paints/brushes, cleaned the window, stabilo penciled a quick layout, got out the paint/brushes and slapped it up. 40 minutes later iam cleaning my brushes and putting paint kit in the trunk. i wrote her a reciept, went in to get paid.
sne paid me $100, and let me know she was happy with the work, BUT wasnt happy because......I DID IT TO QUICK!!!!!!! and i really had to go slow to make it a whole hour)))))))
i do some consulting to a large construction company that does industrial painting. the guy who does job bids calls me when there is signage/logo/artwork to be bid on when they repaint. he sends me email of LENGTH, WIDTH, HIGHT of graphic. and i figure SQ FOOT of it then add to that the level of difficulty of painting said graphic. once you get past a 4'x 4' ..................you better know how to use sq ft as a basis for your pricing.
 

UFB Fabrication

New Member
The formula is the same for large and small companies. Our payment on our building is likely more than a lot of folks sell in a year but we still must make money. The cost of goods sold must be bore than overhead and material cost. If you can not do that then sit at home and watch Oprah. The trend of this industries race to the bottom is amazing. Our minimum is 70.00 and I think we will likely double it soon. Last week we had a current customer that asked about cutting some of his material. I said what our min charge was and said if I was at the shop when he came and would wait for me to cut it for him I would not charge for the 5 minutes of time. I cant pay my staff to bill something that would be free and cover the cost of the paperwork.
 
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