equippaint
Active Member
So nobody asks the customer why? That would kinda dictate how you respond and proceed.
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What's proper etiquette if a prospect sends you a competitor's proof for pricing?
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kcollinsdesign
Old member
Uh, no. The rights belong to the creator unless expressly transferred to the client. Just paying the invoice for a sign job does not automatically transfer the rights. In most cases, a small business client will want all rights for the art, so I negotiate a price and expressly say on the invoice that all rights (or selected rights, in some cases), are transferred to the client. I have this conversation up front with the client, so there are no surprises, and in most cases they a very appreciative. Only in a few instances did the client think I was nuts, went and reproduced my art anyhow, and regretted not heeding my advice. I'm not a jerk about it because most people just don't understand copyright law, but I still insist on being paid.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I hafta agree with you. If the original person whoever designed this did not get their fee by now, too frickin' bad. You can't hold a design hostage for years and come back one day and say ahh, you owe me. It was that guy's and anyone else who designs things to be upfront and explain how these rules work. If you hide that fact, then it's on you. Someone said, the ownership goes with the creator. Ahh nope. If you can't do your job and collect when it's due, don't be coming back 5 years later looking for a free handout.
Over the years, I have duplicated from scratch customer's logos, designs and layouts from photos and that's just too bad. This OP is talking about artwork that the ink hasn't even dried yet. That's a different story, unless they're not being upfront with........ you.
The scenario you presented is probably different than the OP's and most that some of us are recommending caution about and choosing good ethical action in.
You also contradicted yourself in your scenario by stating that the reason your client is coming to you is location and convenience, but whenever anyone else loses a client it's because we aren't keeping them happy enough. Unless we know for certain that the client owns the rights and has paid for the artwork being shopped around, its best not to enable potentially unethical behavior and show some respect for our colleagues.
Proper etiquette. Does that mean what is morally right and meets society's standards, or does it mean what happens in the real world? 'Cause if you are asking what people do in the real world, you use the design and charge less to get the job. That's what people do around here anyway. Had a customer I've done business with since I started 13 years ago on my own. Local powersports/marine store. Did their boat show displays and gateway, interior signage, parking lot signage, building signage, channel letters, and on and on. They bought a marina and we re-signed it. Last year they bought a consignment marine store along the highway and a new sales manager asked me to design and quote redoing the signs. I'd actually done the signs there a few years earlier and knew the structure would need rebuilding (old wood stringers) so I made a design and quoted the job, including redoing the structure and telling them why. Didn't hear back and lo and behold 2-3 weeks later I drive by and my signs are up. I'd done a new design for them, and the signs were absolutely identical to the mockup I'd sent them. But whoever they used didn't rebuild the structure. Less than a week later we had a moderately bad thunderstorm and all the faces blew off and got bent up, and damaged cars on the used car lot next door.
If society and the "real world" is lacking in the proper ethical foundation for whatever reasons, do we play along or do we rise above the weakness and fly right according to what is right and just?
Seriously? I don't find your average socially responsible and ethically upright person to be limited by what economic model they operate under. There are lots of capitalist countries including ours whose citizenry seem to be able to tell right from wrong and still be successful at whatever they work hard at doing.
I Disagree,
If you want to “copyright” something there are legal steps to be taken just like a patent. If a customer pays you to create somethings it’s theres! If you pay someone to build a house who owns it? You do.
If one shop designs a logo you think that customer needs to stay with them forever? Dream on.
Maybe there print files and that stuff is there’s but what shop would ever send a customer print ready files anyways?
I understand an ethical code and if one shop draws up a design for a customer then that customer takes that proof to another shop and gets it done there that sucks and I’ve had it happen to myself. Spend a few hours working with a customer get everything layed out on there vehicle then I didn’t hear back. Month later I see my exact design driving passed me on the road!! It sucks and that’s pretty lame for another shop to do that, but then again maybe the customer pretended they designed it? I won’t do that sort of thing I would create my own design for them.
However recreating the same look on another vehicle to match a fleet in my opinion is not “stealing”.
shoresigns
New Member
The steps for copyright and patent protection are completely different. To get a patent, you have to go through an application process via your country's patent office. Copyright protection applies to your drawing/poem/song/photograph the moment you draw it, write it down, record it, or press the shutter button. There are no other legal steps required for your work to be protected by copyright.
If you hire someone to design you a logo, the designer legally owns the copyright unless they sign a written document that says they're transferring copyright ownership to you. The only case where a person doesn't automatically own the copyright to their own work is when they're doing work for their employer. This doesn't apply to contractors—only employees.
iPrintStuff
Prints stuff
If you pay someone to build a house, you don’t own all the architectural drawings/all the other stuff required to make the house. You’re buying the finished product.
In other words, if someone pays you to make a sign, they do NOT own the files/design you created unless this is agreed upon/paid for. They simply own the sign.
As mentioned, they can buy such files from you, but in the eyes of the law those files are your intellectual property until agreed otherwise.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
That's kinda how it goes, but you are letting out one very important element, people..........
Anyone who is creating something from scratch needs to put their cards on the table UPFRONT. One needs to explain to the enduser how and what will take place, so the end user can make an educated decision, as to owning the creation, be it a song, poem, logo, etc. If you do not address this beforehand, and give the enduser a chance to either buy it, or refuse it..... you will not win in court, as you kept information from the enduser. In most cases, when creating a logo or whatever, you are paid for your services and it's understood when paying these costs, it will belong to the enduser. However, if you wanna hold the creation hostage, just play your little game and see how it turns out.
Going a bit further, putting together a few already in place elements to create a layout, does not equate to ownership 9f a piece of artwork or logo. C'mon people........ get real. If you were in this business with any real knowledge of how business works, this question would not come up twice a day.
Anyone who is creating something from scratch needs to put their cards on the table UPFRONT. One needs to explain to the enduser how and what will take place, so the end user can make an educated decision, as to owning the creation, be it a song, poem, logo, etc. If you do not address this beforehand, and give the enduser a chance to either buy it, or refuse it..... you will not win in court, as you kept information from the enduser. In most cases, when creating a logo or whatever, you are paid for your services and it's understood when paying these costs, it will belong to the enduser. However, if you wanna hold the creation hostage, just play your little game and see how it turns out.
Going a bit further, putting together a few already in place elements to create a layout, does not equate to ownership 9f a piece of artwork or logo. C'mon people........ get real. If you were in this business with any real knowledge of how business works, this question would not come up twice a day.
Well that's something I wasn't familiar with but thanks for the explanation.
I guess with that said there is a whole hell of a lot of copyright infringement happening in the sign world!! hahaha
I still disagree with the law then, because if a customer is paying you to design a logo I think its just as much there "intellectual property" as the creator considering its there thoughts and input going in to it as well, seems like a grey area to me, just saying.
Ive given customers there vector logo file that ive created many times and they have used it with other shops etc. who never asked my permission. Holding it hostage just doesn't seem right to me.
TXFB.INS
New Member
exactly
as designers you need to know the difference and.and how to explain to customers.
example.
new business is starting and they come to get a product (business cards, signs, banner, etc.) they don't have a logo. you "create" a design as part of the layout for the product.
they pay for said product all is good
later on you see your design on other products that you did not make.
they have violated copyrights as they bought the finished product NOT the rights of the design.
same concept, different industry.
you buy a music CD / movie DVD, you are buying the COMPLETED PRODUCT not the rights to copy, use, re-create as you want
Photography same scenario
- trademark
- copyright
- patent
as designers you need to know the difference and.and how to explain to customers.
example.
new business is starting and they come to get a product (business cards, signs, banner, etc.) they don't have a logo. you "create" a design as part of the layout for the product.
they pay for said product all is good
later on you see your design on other products that you did not make.
they have violated copyrights as they bought the finished product NOT the rights of the design.
same concept, different industry.
you buy a music CD / movie DVD, you are buying the COMPLETED PRODUCT not the rights to copy, use, re-create as you want
Photography same scenario
You are right, there is a ton of it happening and just because signmakers don't do anything about it or resent graphic designers who protect their intellectual property rights and think it's silly to do so, doesn't mean it's not a legitimate practice to do. Go ask Dan Antonelli of KickCharge Creative about this issue. His wrap design work is probably the most ripped off sign related work out there.
Just because YOU aren't uncomfortable or dismayed by another creative entity using your intellectual property without fully paying for the rights to it, doesn't negate the fact that it is an infringement. All any of us are saying and you keep resisting to accept is that we set our policies and tolerance levels for this sort of thing. We also have rights we are fully entitled to enforce as stringently as the law allows.
equippaint
Active Member
Gino
Premium Subscriber
The difference is..... you must tell, explain and make sure they understand the consequences BEFORE, they start doing business with you. When you watch a DVD or something, it comes up on the screen and explains to you what's going on and what will happen. If you watch a baseball game or listen to it on the radio, they explicitly tell you what'll happen if you copy it in any fashion. We are not entitled to a thing, if we don't explain to the enduser, first.
This thinking, that we are exceptional creators and are entitled to this sh!t is just stupid. About 98% of what y'all are talking about you copied from someone else. There are very few people who work from scratch anymore. The Dan As and whatnot have stuff copied, because they don't do much to stop it. Does Disney or Harley ?? Yep, cause they take it seriously and make it well known.
kcollinsdesign
Old member
You can disagree with me all you want, but the law is the law. Any rights (copyright law actually extends a bundle of rights to the creator, including reproduction rights; display distribution and performance rights; and the creation of derivative work) not transferred explicity, in writing, remain the property of the creator. Using someone else's design without their permission is theft. If a client wants you to copy an existing design, have themm sign a copyright release waiver:
I hereby grant to YOUR BUSINESS permission to use the following copyrighted material (listed below) in digital format. I am granting the YOUR BUSINESS permission for non-exclusive rights to use the written work(s), image(s), and/or art object(s) described below in this and future editions of the following project:
Project Name _________________________________________________________________________________________
Description of Copyrighted Material ________________________________________________________________________
I certify that no other individual or parties hold copyright interest in the work(s) described above, that I hold all rights to the works listed, and that the license granted herein does not violate any third-party rights or applicable laws. I hereby certify and covenant that I am of legal age (a parent or legal guardian must sign for a minor), or if applicable, that I am authorized to sign on behalf of the entity listed below.
CLIENT SIGNS AND DATES HERE ________________________________________________________________________
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
This is really only good if they have the rights to the design in the first place. Getting this signed by someone that doesn't have the legal right to the design means squat.
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kcollinsdesign
Old member
I think we agree on how to handle copyright issues, but I disagree that the law is not on the creator's side. Copyright protections are automatically bestowed on the creator (you don't have to do anything, but it is a good idea to keep records of when the art was created and by whom (work for hire, independant contractor, yourself).
On the practical side of things, I crank out so many designs and it comes so easily to me that if somebody occasionally steals something, I just laugh it off. It's not worth developing a reputation as "that" guy (people will be afraid to hire you), and firing up an attorney is not a proportional response to losing several hours of work.
Note: I can understand why many graphic designers and studios jealously guard their copyrights. Between design briefs, comps, meetings, meetings about meetings, final art production, a pass though legal then deliverables and archiving, along with having to pay an art director, possibly a creative director, an account manager and associated over head, it costs usually thousands of dollars and takes weeks to croak out a design. Most of us sign guys, however, can crank out a decent design in twenty minutes or so, maybe a few hours if it is complicated. It just isn't such a big deal.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but are you saying if you create something...... anything, and it is used by your client, they don't have a voice in the matter as to ownership ?? If one is forthright and wanting to do business with someone willing to pay them to create something, isn't it only fair to tell them, in your situation, that although you are charging for a logo or whatever, they can't use their own logo down the road ?? UNLESS, they pay you additional fees ??
See, most people in the industry today are afraid to do this, as they know, the person will go elsewhere with those ideas or rules. But these same people have no problem pouncing on someone if they try to use their own branding/logo that they paid for without any warning them upfront with a document needing to be signed.. Sounds a little one sided and if a judge would have this in his court, while you have all the copyrights to it, without a proper trail, he'll tell you this is not the way to do normal business and will most likely find in favor of the enduser, for you not being honest and upfront.
See, most people in the industry today are afraid to do this, as they know, the person will go elsewhere with those ideas or rules. But these same people have no problem pouncing on someone if they try to use their own branding/logo that they paid for without any warning them upfront with a document needing to be signed.. Sounds a little one sided and if a judge would have this in his court, while you have all the copyrights to it, without a proper trail, he'll tell you this is not the way to do normal business and will most likely find in favor of the enduser, for you not being honest and upfront.