What's proper etiquette if a prospect sends you a competitor's proof for pricing?

[ikarasu]

This is why I hate copyright. Charge for your work - if you design something... Get paid for it. If they bring it elsewhere, who cares?

We charge for everything we do. Say we're charging $2000 for a vehicle wrap and we estimate 3-4 hours of graphic design. Well tell the customer it's $300 for the design....$2000 for the wrap. However if they get the wrap done, we deduct the $300 design from it.

That way we get paid for our designs no matter what, and the customer now has an incentive to use us for the wrap rather than shop around.

Of course we won't send them production files... But if they want to goto some guy in Craigslist and get it done for 1/2 the price, that's up to them. Once it fails in 6 months we'll have everything ready to go for a redo!

If you design a vehicle for mcdonalds, using all their logos and colors... You don't own the design. Or at least shouldn't.... But you should get paid for your work....which hopefully you're smart enough to charge for and not do the design for free in hopes they do a wrap through you.

 

[Jb1983]

This is why I hate copyright. Charge for your work - if you design something... Get paid for it. If they bring it elsewhere, who cares?

We charge for everything we do. Say we're charging $2000 for a vehicle wrap and we estimate 3-4 hours of graphic design. Well tell the customer it's $300 for the design....$2000 for the wrap. However if they get the wrap done, we deduct the $300 design from it.

That way we get paid for our designs no matter what, and the customer now has an incentive to use us for the wrap rather than shop around.

Of course we won't send them production files... But if they want to goto some guy in Craigslist and get it done for 1/2 the price, that's up to them. Once it fails in 6 months we'll have everything ready to go for a redo!

If you design a vehicle for mcdonalds, using all their logos and colors... You don't own the design. Or at least shouldn't.... But you should get paid for your work....which hopefully you're smart enough to charge for and not do the design for free in hopes they do a wrap through you.

EXACTLY

Have confidence in your work, in your relationship with your customer and if your treating them FAIRLY they won’t go elsewhere.

“Intellectual property” well how many of you have designed something, let’s say a logo with ZERO input from the customer? I can say I’ve never not had the customer give me there ideas, tell me to change things etc etc. So doesn’t that mean part of that “intellectual property” is there’s? Cause in my mind it sure makes sense! Not too mention there paying me.

Come on people

 

[shoresigns]

“Intellectual property” well how many of you have designed something, let’s say a logo with ZERO input from the customer? I can say I’ve never not had the customer give me there ideas, tell me to change things etc etc. So doesn’t that mean part of that “intellectual property” is there’s? Cause in my mind it sure makes sense! Not too mention there paying me.

Come on people

As far as the law is concerned, the collaborative design process you're describing breaks down into two parts: ideas and drawings. Ideas can't be copyrighted, but drawings can. It doesn't matter who has the ideas. Whoever makes the drawings owns the copyright.

Morally speaking, it doesn't seem fair, but practically speaking, there's no way to prove who owns an idea if no one wrote it down or made a drawing of it. This is why copyright begins when a drawing is made and the rights belong to the person or company that made the drawing.

 

[Gino]

Let's appraoch this whole thing from the other end. I don't really care who has the idea or makes the drawing or writes out the words to a song, so here goes.

Harry comes to you to have a logo designed. Do you :

A. Go over the details involved and explain what things cost and who gets what at the end if things are agreed upon ??​

OR
​

B. Just start doodling away, get paid for your efforts and lie in wait, til you need money, then go after them for using what they already paid for ??

​

 

[shoresigns]

Let's appraoch this whole thing from the other end. I don't really care who has the idea or makes the drawing or writes out the words to a song, so here goes.

Harry comes to you to have a logo designed. Do you :

A. Go over the details involved and explain what things cost and who gets what at the end if things are agreed upon ??​

OR
​

B. Just start doodling away, get paid for your efforts and lie in wait, til you need money, then go after them for using what they already paid for ??

​

I think we can all agree that (A) is the best practice, obviously. But even if there was never a signed agreement to transfer the copyright, (B) is basically nonsense as it's never going to happen. After the logo is done and paid for, a sign company or designer isn't going to go after the client for using the logo.

 

[TimToad]

EXACTLY

Have confidence in your work, in your relationship with your customer and if your treating them FAIRLY they won’t go elsewhere.

“Intellectual property” well how many of you have designed something, let’s say a logo with ZERO input from the customer? I can say I’ve never not had the customer give me there ideas, tell me to change things etc etc. So doesn’t that mean part of that “intellectual property” is there’s? Cause in my mind it sure makes sense! Not too mention there paying me.

Come on people

You're hung up on this idea that in order for a client to ever use someone else or shop around, it has to be a failing on our part. So you've never had a customer replace their purchasing agent or office manager and had them go elsewhere just out of not knowing that you even existed let alone were the "trusted" source for sign work?

Happens to us from time to time through no fault of ours. I've seen it happen to shops all over wherever I've lived and worked the last 40 plus years.

We deal with clients of all shapes and sizes and like most businesses in America many have a far amount of turnover these days. We are working in a town of 28,000 in a county of 250,000 people and there are six brick and mortar sign companies in our town alone. There are a dozen or more combined in all the other nearby towns we also service. Some have active sales forces who don't care how happy a client is, their job is to go out and beat the bushes for work. If a salesperson happens upon a new front office hire at the right time, that person might just make a switch and by the time you notice that someone else is now doing their work, some length of time can pass. We've also lost clients because they wouldn't honor our payment terms and some other shop was more willing to let things ride on getting paid.

We have a new player in our town who outsources all or most of his work and then underbids everyone in order to try to siphon off and create a client base from the existing sign companies. He even has some not so veiled and insulting language on his website about how he started his business here to save businesses from the bad service and poor design they've been getting from the other local sign companies. No problem, just hope he never needs a hand or favor. We've now added a line in our quotes about how we support our local economy by doing 95% of our production in house and pay a locally adjusted living wage and benefits to our employees. Thankfully, most clients WANT to support local businesses like ours. We get new clients all the time and many of them were actually unhappy with the service or quality they received elsewhere, so we make sure to provide the best service, quality and reliability.

A customer can be totally pickled and happy with our work, pricing and past experiences, but a new manager or boss could suddenly tell them to go get three bids on every project. Our confidence level or past performance has nothing to do with that happening.

As far as your idea about what constitutes "intellectual property" the distinctions have been explained really well by several other members.

 

[d fleming]

So the original question was what do you do if someone hands you a competitors proof for bid. Myself, I hand it back and tell them I am never the cheapest and I don't copy other people's work. If all you are doing is shopping a cheaper price I am definitely not your sign guy. They do from time to time copy mine, it's inevitable. As a matter of fact one of my neighbors had another shop reproduce my art for his sign. Told me flat out he didn't think he owed a dime for my time to lay it out and the other guy did it cheaper. The sign that got put up is very poor workmanship and in a year when it starts failing I can chuckle every morning when I see it.

 

[Jb1983]

You're hung up on this idea that in order for a client to ever use someone else or shop around, it has to be a failing on our part. So you've never had a customer replace their purchasing agent or office manager and had them go elsewhere just out of not knowing that you even existed let alone were the "trusted" source for sign work?
.

No not at all what im getting at. That's just your interpretation. What im saying is your idea of copyright and intellectual property may be "law" but morally in my opinion is BS. That's all and im entitled to my opinion. Ive lost customers that I did nothing wrong for, sometimes they just meet a new "friend" and they want to do business with them instead and that's understandable. For reasons like that and keeping there designs consistant I don't believe copying designs they already have for future work is a bad thing or bad practice, you are doing what the customer wants and deserves to be able to have done. I think your hung up on the idea that a customer MUST stay with you or they have to change all there designs or pay you an extra premium to shop elsewhere which is just not morally right.

This has gotten way off topic and to the OP question im with d fleming. In fact I just had a customer bring me a logo he wanted me to copy from another company and just switch 1 word, I told him no way I was doing it and I drew up a new logo that I thought was way nicer. Well he still wanted to copy the other logo so I told him he would need to find another sign guy to do that for him. Copying another companies proof or design that hasn't been paid for or a job done for already is certainly not cool.

 

[TimToad]

No not at all what im getting at. That's just your interpretation. What im saying is your idea of copyright and intellectual property may be "law" but morally in my opinion is BS. That's all and im entitled to my opinion. Ive lost customers that I did nothing wrong for, sometimes they just meet a new "friend" and they want to do business with them instead and that's understandable. For reasons like that and keeping there designs consistant I don't believe copying designs they already have for future work is a bad thing or bad practice, you are doing what the customer wants and deserves to be able to have done. I think your hung up on the idea that a customer MUST stay with you or they have to change all there designs or pay you an extra premium to shop elsewhere which is just not morally right.

This has gotten way off topic and to the OP question im with d fleming. In fact I just had a customer bring me a logo he wanted me to copy from another company and just switch 1 word, I told him no way I was doing it and I drew up a new logo that I thought was way nicer. Well he still wanted to copy the other logo so I told him he would need to find another sign guy to do that for him. Copying another companies proof or design that hasn't been paid for or a job done for already is certainly not cool.

If its gone off topic which I don't think it has, you're as responsible for it doing so as anyone else. We're all just adding thoughts and opinions as the discussion evolves.

When a person repeats the same opinion or assertion multiple times, I interpret it the way it keeps being reiterated.

I also don't see why you feel entitled to call other people's opinions "BS" simply because you disagree. A person could agree that the Geneva Convention on the treatment of prisoners of war is legal, but "morally" think that it's ok to torture prisoners. That doesn't make that person right and anyone else who sees the contradiction there as wrong.

This issue transcends just keeping things consistent for a client. Nobody here is suggesting that if a client with a fleet of trucks has paid for the design and rights to the imagery for their fleet markings and can prove it if asked, that you or I can't or shouldn't duplicate it. We'd all be pretty damn slow if we could only do completely original work that we created. How many of us would turn down a Verizon store signage program because we misunderstood the concept of intellectual property rights and copyright law?

You seem to contradict yourself in your post by saying that on one hand mine and others interpretations of copyright law is morally wrong, but you then agree with mine and other's position by stating "Copying another companies proof or design that hasn't been paid for or a job done for already is certainly not cool."

There are more people here advocating for and defending the proper role and ethics of copyright protections in our legal system than who are taking your position.

I'm not "hung up" on anything except doing the right thing when confronted by a potential customer asking us to duplicate someone else's designs without showing proper proof that the design has been paid for and they possess the full rights to duplicate it as they see fit. We give our clients choices for what they can do with an original logo or design we create for them. Judging from a large number of answers in this thread, we're in very good company with those who take a similar approach. If you don't mind client's taking your property

We lose and gain customers all the time and have ZERO expectations that any of them owe us a thing other than payment for the order at hand.

 

[rossmosh]

1. If someone walks in wanting a sign bid out with what I'd consider a concept drawing, I'd bid it out for the job. If they told me they wanted EXACTLY that, I'd tell them to bring me the artwork, we can work up something similar, or go back to whomever created the original artwork. It would depend on the details of the discussion we had. If I got the feeling they were just price shopping, they'd keep shopping because I know I'm not the cheapest in the area, nor am I the most expensive.

2. Artwork ownership is fairly cut and dry. Unless the customer pays for the artwork, it's not theirs. Now when it comes to certain artwork, the passing of ownership is implied. If you make a logo for someone, it's implied you'll get full ownership at the end once the bill is paid. On a wrap, that is not the case. Ultimately, it's eventually going to happen where you create some sort of design, lose the client, and your design ends up being reproduced by someone else. It might be frustrating, but ultimately it's not worth stressing over. Just make sure to send your proofs at lower quality raster images and get paid for your time.

 

[eahicks]

Tell them to put away whatever proof they have, and to explain to me what it is they are wanting, and we'll provide a proof based off of that. I don't necessarily care what something else did, as I probably won't like it anyway. If they came in solely to get the same thing looking for cheaper, we'll let them know "we are not going to beat someone else's price for work they've already put together for you". We'll kindly start from ground zero and see where we land.

 

[Jb1983]

You seem to contradict yourself in your post by saying that on one hand mine and others interpretations of copyright law is morally wrong, but you then agree with mine and other's position by stating "Copying another companies proof or design that hasn't been paid for or a job done for already is certainly not cool."
.

Zero contradiction you just love to argue eh?

If customer has paid a shop for the design= it’s theres to do what they want / have it duplicated by someone else.

If customer has a proof/drawing they have NOT paid for then we don’t copy it or duplicate it as it’s not there’s since they haven’t paid for it.

As my example from the beginning a customer has a fleet of vehicles already with matching designs, it’s safe to believe they have paid for the work. That’s enough “proof of ownership” for me.

 

[rossmosh]

I'm not sure I follow how a wrap graphic is different from a logo. I mean, speaking literally, both are printed in their entirety on the same materials, applied, paid for. How would you explain to your customer that you will send them a vector of a logo, but that the wrap is yours? Not trying to dog you, I just could see that policy getting very hairy very fast.
I can understand not providing paneled artwork, cause damn, I'm not doing the other sign companies job for them, but I myself would come off the vector layout on the render.
This is assuming they have bought a wrap initially, and this is an additional one.

It's about what you're buying.

When you buy a logo, you're paying for the design time & the rights to use it. It's why when you shop for logo designers they specifically state that you're buying exclusive rights to the design. It's an industry standard deal but you also have to make sure that's the case if you're dealing with a designer who is a bit of a jerk.

When you get a vehicle wrapped, you're paying for me to accomplish that task. You are not paying for exclusive rights to my intellectual property. You can absolutely negotiate that into the deal but unless it's specifically stated "when pay you for this work, you're also giving us full property of said artwork" then you don't own it. The designer/artist does.

This isn't really open to interpretation. This is simply the law. Personally, I'm not all that concerned with my IP so I wouldn't bother someone for "stealing" my design unless they didn't pay me anything for it (in the case I was an idiot and did work on spec).

 

[equippaint]

Right wrong or indifferent, I think the general expectation for a paying client is that as part of the job, you made them a design and its theirs. Whether or not you charged them for it is your problem. If you're gonna get your panties in a wad when someone uses your design then make sure you charge enough for it upfront to be happy with it as a stand alone job.

 

[Z SIGNS]

Here is what I do. If it's a sketch from another sign shop in my area that I have a good relationship with. I will reach out to them and ask them what they were asking for the job and then quote it higher to help them out. If somebody sends me a sketch of some helvetica channel letters and asks me how much to make and install I give them a price.
Very often we get bid packages for some big jobs that have prepared by someone for the purpose of bidding. We don't say no because we didn't do the design.Who does?
All is fair in love and signs. If your dumb enough to give out free designs that your problem.

 

[rossmosh]

Really not trying to troll here, but I don't know how well a lawyer could argue that the wrap you custom designed for a customer is your intellectual property. I get how nike can sell a million nike shirts and still own the nike logo, but it would seem to be inherently different.

This is one of those cases where there's a lot of gray area but at the same time, the law is also pretty clear. You create it. You own the rights to that creation. the buyer owns the item. You can transfer the rights. That's your decision, but it doesn't automatically transfer unless specifically stated or it's implied because of industry standards and even then, that may not hold up.

Realistically, you'll be hard pressed to find too many sign shops battling it out in court over this type of thing.

If you're really interested in reading about it: https://www.liveabout.com/who-owns-copyright-of-a-painting-2578104

 

[shoresigns]

A lot of good arguments here, but sometimes we forget how complicated things really are. Virtually every argument made in this thread can be knocked down in one way or another.

For instance, not all countries have the same rules on copyrights, and not everyone contributing to this thread is American, so in some ways we're talking past each other.

There's also the threshold of originality, which would divide all your wrap designs into some that are copyrighted (creative ones) and some that are not (logo plus contact info).

Another issue is joint authorship, which could potentially apply to any designs a sign shop makes that includes the customer's logo. If joint authorship applies, you can't claim that you own the copyright and the client doesn't, because you both own it.

 

[signman315]

In my opinion the nature of the design plays a big part here...is the design "words on a board" in which case the words/fonts aren't owned by the original creator anyway and the artwork is considered derivative and they don't own it in the first place. In that case copy away! But if it's a complex, truly unique design, then the ethical choice is to recreate something similar but not derivative. I'm a big fan of working ethically, but we also have to put food on the table. Chances are you would be copying poor design anyway and if you have a good art team you could blow it out of the water with something better, that's my go to approach when I'm put in this situation. And the kind of good will you build with your clients is priceless when you do that. On the other hand, I've yet to see the "sign police" enforcing any copyright infringement, leaving it up to the original artist to enforce their own copyright. Actually in my opinion that system is kind of good, let us govern ourselves and keep the man out of our way haha!

 

[bmt Promotions]

If the client is looking for a price, quote it and include an artwork charge in there, put a note that the artwork charge will be waived if they supply print ready artwork.