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Discussion When to purchase a bucket truck.

Mastermatt87

New Member
My wife and I are wanting to take the next step and purchase a bucket truck.

When do you know if your company is ready?

This is our 3rd year in business and 2nd year in our store front.

I am 100% convinced the best return is Installing for national brands

How can you justify a $150k truck or should you get something cheap until it picks up?

I currently Borrow a truck.
The draw back is national brands want me to own or lease my truck.

Do you believe a truck would take my business to the next level or put me in debt.

Thanks guys.

Matt P.

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Kottwitz-Graphics

New Member
Actually, no one can tell you when you should buy a new truck, or any piece of equipment, for that matter... BUT, there are formulas to help you decide...

You need to know what your daily, weekly, or monthly cost of it is going to be. That is not only going to be the cost of the lease, but also the cost of insurance, maintenance, cost to run it (fuel, and paycheck of the employee that will drive/operate it). Now when you add all this up, will you have enough work to justify that cost, and if it sits idle for several days, can your business cover the cost?

And also, will you need an employee with a cdl to get behind the wheel?

If your convinced that is the next step for your business, also keep in mind buying used. You can get good deals on used equipment, and let the major companies (Verizon, or some utility company) take the initial depreciation hit by buying new and buy their used truck.
 

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
Your looking at a new, very large bucket truck and I think you need to be a large volume sign company to justify that. Only the mega huge sign companies around here are buying those new. On a side note...I never see just one of those on a job-site, I usually see them in pairs.

For 150k, the financing, depreciation, increase in business insurance, maintenance and taxes that come with it could be a lot to overcome.

Some people are eager or more aggressive in acquiring equipment to grow their business... some are more cautious. I saw a sign company around here go ape-shit acquiring (used) 4 large bucket trucks and a staff of around 5-6 people within a year. Something happened and they are down to one and an electrician and have stayed that way for a while. Maybe it was costing too much, maybe the owner didn't like managing all those people, maybe he wanted a calmer/slower pace...maybe the business never came. Whichever the reason I'm glad he found his comfort zone, because personally I'd rather stay small and be more picky about the jobs I want to take. Having all those things/people would make my head spin.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Both posts so far, are spot on. However, everything is relevant. When someone wants to expand into the digital printing field, everyone says go for the big one or you'll be sorry in no time. Someone asks about installing a nice sign and again, everyone says to go big or go home.

We all talk from where we are presently and can afford based on our personal experiences, but it's all how you can determine your future while being brutally honest with your capabilities and finances.

We rented buildings and warehouses our first 30 years in business. After we bought our 10,000 s f building, I had wished I had done it 25 years earlier. We got our first bucket truck about 6 years sgo. Not 2 weeks after that, I wondered why I hadn't done it 25 years ago.

So many decisions are waited on, because of caution. What's really happening is..... they're not honest with themselves and won't reach for that preverbial golden ring.

That truck looks mighty big. Other than sign work, can you keep it working 25 to 30 hours a week and still make the payments on all levels ??
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
Go for it! Crane service: cell phone work, lifting AC units on buildings, plus sign work, you will be busy.
Fear is your enemy in business!
 

Mastermatt87

New Member
I appreciate the feed back guys.

I have been dreaming about a truck for almost a year.

I believe we will stick to a used truck with a two man bucket with a minimum of 60’ working height.

My insurance agent priced me out at $9k
For the year.

That’s a ballpark figure.

There is always a fear that it won’t run 30+ hours a week so used would be best to start.

Thanks for your time guys.


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equippaint

Active Member
I bet the insurance will be killer. It's a crane and insurance companies don't like them. It may change your workers comp rates as well. Own a used bucket truck and sub out the lifting unless it's needed all of the time. You can rent a 25t crane or boom truck for 100-150/hr with all of the rigging, insurance and an operator.
 

signbrad

New Member
Matt,

When do you know if your company is ready?
No one on this forum can answer that for you. No one knows your circumstances, and they are different for all of us. The most important person to ask this question of, in my opinion, is your accountant. And by accountant, I mean someone who is more than just a tax preparer. I mean someone who knows your business and who can be an advisor, who can impartially help with major decision making. Your accountant can be your most trusted business "partner," especially if you don't consider yourself an accounting genius.

This is our 3rd year in business and 2nd year in our storefront.

In my third year in business, I was "business-stupid." I did not know what a "break-even point" was. I did not know how to figure an hourly shop rate. My prices were mainly based on what others charged. I knew what terms like "overhead" meant, but I did not really understand business concepts. I thought "profit" was what you paid yourself. I worked many 100-hour weeks. When I hired an accountant, it was the best move of my career. For a monthly retainer, he gave me advice on everything, even on finding just the right bank and banker to use (he knew which banks were good at SBA loans and with helping businesses of my size). The money I spent on him was the best investment I ever made. In my opinion, your accountant can become one of the most important persons in your world. Of second importance would be an ongoing relationship with a banker, developing this before you really need him or her. Eventually, a broker can be added to your list of business partners.

I am 100% convinced the best return is Installing for national brands
How do you know this? What convinces you? Does your accountant agree? Just as an example, and it may not fit your situation, the company I work for now has about 12 employees and does very little national work. Yet they keep two older bucket trucks busy all day long, five days a week. The trucks break down regularly and get repaired. The owner charges cheap prices but there is always money for truck repairs. He refuses to buy new equipment.

The drawback is national brands want me to own or lease my truck.
I also worked for a company that was and is known for high prices. Their rolling equipment has always been late model and beautifully maintained. They were successful enough to buy out other sign companies in other towns as time went on till they acquired six branches. Each branch has been outfitted with one or more trucks like the two-man Elliot in your picture. With about a hundred employees, they do national accounts on a regular basis.

Do you believe a truck would take my business to the next level or put me in debt?
The answer to both these questions is yes. A major purchase will certainly take your business to the next level of debt. And the next level of stress. Will it take you to the next level of income?
These would be a good question for an accountant.

Many of us have opinions, but as Gino mentioned above, our opinions are based on our own circumstances. Some of us have succeeded despite being ignorant of accounting knowledge. Some seem to have natural business abilities, and some get lucky breaks. But most new businesses fail. And I have read that most failures are within the first two or three years, and are the result of business management.

There are many smart people on this forum. They give advice freely. This is a good thing. But always remember what free advice is worth (including my own).

..............................

These Elliots are beautiful machines. They can lift weight, too. So they are good for far more than just servicing lighted signs. Some of the older models had a control stick that was multi-function. You could raise, extend and rotate almost all at the same time with one hand. I think the rules require separate controls these days. But when I once worked for a shop that had both an old Elliot and a new Elliot, everybody wanted to take the old one.

Brad in Kansas City

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Billct2

Active Member
So you've been doing a lot of electric work & installs that require renting a bucket truck and/or crane? Usually the time to add a piece of equipment is when the amount you're spending to sub out or rent is getting close to what owning would cost. But of course a bucket truck is a special situation, the skill set to do the kind of work you're talking about is pretty significant and specialized. And I don't know if a lot of national franchises would be willing to switch from an existing vendor to try out a new one with no real track record. But. there is a demand for that kind of work and you will have less competition than you do for regular sign work.
 

equippaint

Active Member
I agree with Brad but I think they say most fail within the first 5 years and the largest reason is from lack of capital.
Not everyone stresses over a payment and/or insolvency but that is a different boat than I ride on.
 

Active Sign

Sign Guy
That’s a monster truck. I’d go with a decent used one. It will take your business to the next level. It will change your mindset and confidence level. I put off buying a bucket truck for years and now I don’t know how we got by without it for so long. I purchased an older one cash and use it 3 times a week most weeks.

Figure out if you need a truck that size all the time. I have a 45ft single man bucket on a GM 3500 and it works great for most jobs. It also fits in a regular parking spot. When the project is too big for the 45ft we rent a big boom lift from a local rental yard. Insurance, maintenance, fuel, etc, is much less expensive that way.

Those big trucks are very appealing though!



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Sandman

New Member
I see you are in Mississippi. Have you done this type of work already? Here in Michigan you have to have a sign installers license to work on electric signs. To be allowed to take the test for the license you have to apprentice in an electric sign shop for 2 years (4000 hours). For your sake I hope Mississippi doesn't have the same overly restrictive licensing.
 

BobM

New Member
I never buy new equipment until I can prove it can pay for itself. 10 years ago every time I installed a sign, store owners in the area would ask me to come repair their lighted signs. Great idea I thought. I bought a very used van with a 27' boom, loaded it up with bulbs, sockets, electrical supplies and stared making sales calls on the business's that had signs I could reach to repair. Without fail, every estimate and invoice I presented was met with SHOCK, "how much"? $65.00 and hour? Minimum of $95 to open the sign to just "stick a bulb in"?
Couldn't get the costs down low enough to compete with those that were doing the work "on the fly" shall we say. Even the ones with bucket trucks carried no liability insurance, workers comp, or met OSHA or State standards. They came in, stuck a bulb or 2 in, got the quick cash and took off. No warranty, no shop, cell phone if they choose to answer it.
I would recommend you research the market, contact the "National" companies to see if they have regular work in your area and what the rates are, and how high their installations are.
Continue to grow your business and expand into the need for more equipment.
 

dale911

President
I am a wholesale printer who became friends with one of the local sign shops. He knew that I had done a lot of construction work on the past and has a lot of tools and started asking me to help him out with service and install work as I was growing my printing business. On an occasion last February, he asked me about pulling some channel letters off of a building and reinstalling them on another building. I did the job with him on a ladder to pull the letters and then used a Small rickety scaffold to put up the letters. The job ended up taking two days because I also had to deal with a brick install and only had a $60 hammer drill and tap cons. After that job, I noted how much faster it would be to have a bucket truck with the right tools. I found a 1995 Ford F-350 with a 29’ boom (hits about 36’ straight up hit most jobs are at an angle).

I only paid $4750 for the truck and the insurance is about $550 per year. I spend 1-2 days a week in it. The floor board is all rusted out and so are the bottoms in the tool box but the truck paid for itself in 3 months. I just did an install last Thursday for $250 that was 3 miles from my house and took me about an hour and a half from the time I left the driveway to the time I got back home. I do wish I had one of the nice articulating booms with material handler and at least 42’ height but this truck is getting me paid. I had a job back in December that I couldn’t do with the truck so I rented a towable loft. I knew I could’ve get the truck in a position to use it so I charged the client for the rental on top of the install fee. The speed and convenience of the truck are fantastic. I now do all the installs for a a local franchise and a few other local shops and it’s all been from talking to them when doing their printing.

I am a very cautious person and after 14 years as an officer, I often fear taking risks that can be avoided but I am now taking a leap in my printing business as well by adding a Scitex FB500 to run flatbed work. Found a great deal on a used one that has been taken care of. Wish I had done this sooner as well. My math showed that my material costs and time costs compared with print/laminate/mount are going to astronomically better.

Having a truck or any tool is just as much about being more efficient and saving money as it is about generating additional revenue.

I attached a pic of my “rig” from when I rented the towable lift as well. This truck isn’t pretty but it makes $$$. I’m about to hire someone to work just the install/service as it’s growing quickly as a subcontractor for the other shops in the area.

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Rocco G

New Member
Only you can answer those questions. Are you doing installation for national chains now? The nationals I deal with (and my main income stream is from this sort of work) don't always care what truck you use. They are mainly concerned that your company is actually doing the work and not just taking the jobs and subbing them out. A couple times a year a PM calls me in a panic when a company that they hired turns out to be a broker and their sub bailed on the job. Installing for nationals really is a good thing if you approach it correctly.

That's an expensive truck. The insurance will be high til you pay it off. When you have a loan on a vehicle the banks want full coverage, even with a used truck if you go that route. Take that into account in your calculations. What about crossing state lines? Carry a sign on the truck and now you are an interstate carrier and need the appropriate paperwork. Depending on your insurer you may be able to list it as "equipment in transit" but they might require it to be insured as a crane. Insuring a crane is expensive. Ask your agent.

That truck you showed in the OP almost has to be over CDL weight - 26000 pounds. Do you have that license or are able to get it? And if your rig (even an Elliot style truck) can lift more than 2000 pounds you will need the CCO (certified crane operators) license for your state and whatever state you might travel to. Often the installation of signs for the national sign companies are on new construction sites and the GC will often ask for the paperwork before you set foot on the site.

Don't rush into it what ever you do. Run the numbers, both with good economy assumptions and also for bad ones. Good luck with it.

One last thing. No matter how high your truck will reach, you will always wish you had just a bit more.

YMMV
 

Hero Signs

If they let me make it, they will come
Here is how I decide to buy equipment that I currently or previously subbed out.
Total cost of subed work for 2 years equals the cost of the equipment. If you can't pay off the equipment in 2 to 3 years, either start with used or continue to sub.
 

ams

New Member
I recommend doing what I did. Start out with a standard basic bucket truck, 30 ft, bought mine used for $7,500 and worked for two years. Then I upgraded to a 42' for $23,750 and have had it ever since. Spending $150k on a bucket truck to start out with is insane and not worth it. Think about how many days it's going to sit at the shop and not be used. If you needed it twice a day every day, then yes do it. But if you are going to use it maybe once every two or three days, don't do it.
 

blufftonsignguy

New Member
I purchased my bucket truck in December of last year. I found a nice used utility truck at a very reasonable price. I do a decent amount of service work out of it for pole light repairs mostly but also use it for my own installs. With the cost of renting a lift every time I need to get a raise, I could have purchased this truck a long time ago. I would say it depends on what you are going to do with it and how often. Mine so far has paid for it self. It may sit for a week and then run for 3 days the next week. My truck has an overall 42' reach.
 
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