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Question Which forum would be appropriate for this type of question?
- Thread starter gwizah
- Start date
Okay, guess I'll post here.
I am a mural artist/painter by trade and I am currently working on a ceiling project using my 1st cutter to produce stencils to mask a pattern that I then paint onto said ceiling.
My issue is twofold, one being, the stencil material I am using: Oramask 813. I wish I had looked at the specs more carefully, as I didn't read it's for smooth surfaces and I am using it on a ceiling, with multiple layers of plaster, paint, and all the associated bumps and waves that go with that.
Hindsight being 20/20, I would have prepped this ceiling very differently, and used oramask 810, or a variant instead. But that's a situation that I've resolved via TLC. (tedious, lengthy corrections!)
Any other suggestions on a vinyl that can be used with water-based paints, that can go over a slightly bumpy surface?
Project currently looks like this:
Now to the second part: The client wants the grey color you see in the image above darker. meaning, he is unhappy with the current pattern as it appears against the lighter grey. When I pressed him as to why he waited until nearly the entire ceiling was complete to tell me this, he replied that he wanted to see the whole thing before making a decision. I explained that changing the color without re-painting the ceiling would be difficult, and re-painting would be costly, and time-consuming. (here's my lack of experience)
I told him "re-painting the ceiling would get you the look you want, but would basically involve re-cutting ALL the stencils used, and re-weeding, re-taping, re-transferring and re-painting."
He asked how much would that cost? I sighed. As expected, he asked that I give him another option. I gave him two.
1. Leave ceiling as is.
2. I could attempt to use a semi-transparent coating on the ceiling. He would lose the glossiness of the black, but perhaps get the darker shade he was after.
He went for #2. Now, I have experimented with semi-transparent paints before (alcohol based inks,. dyes) but never on a large scale. It's always been on smaller areas of artwork. So, I did two experiments.
On a piece of scrap wood I re-created the same paint and pattern used above and tested two types of coating.
1. Alcohol based ink diluted with 70% isopropyl
the wood grain absorbed some of the ink wash and left some dark streaks, but I was planning to use the technique on a painted ceiling so no big deal.
2. Olympic Wood Stain in a dark black. (I had some laying around and figured, why not try?)
As you can see, the stain was a big fail. Too shiny, and the un-even buildup on the grey is too much.
After showing the client the images above, he liked the ink option, but asked if there was a way to make the color less reddish. Which is why I'm reaching out here. Has anyone ever worked with a semi-transparent coating that can cover a larger area?
Had any success with using diluted inks or dyes to change the color of something after its been painted? I hope I'm not over-reaching asking for help here. This seems very niche and more of a "You dug that hole chief..." question.
But hey! The client is the guy with the shovel in this case!
Were you responsible for the base color (gray)? Was it something the customer approved before you started?
If no to the first question, my response would be they are welcome to Kilz the pattern and repaint the ceiling a darker gray, and then after they pay you for what you have already done, they can pay you to do it again.
If yes to both questions, then the answer would be the same, and you'd be charging for the repainting of the base coat as well.
If yes to the first and no to the second, I'd make a small sample of proposed new color, get approval, and then repaint the ceiling at my own expense, charging them only for doing it once.
The only stencil material I've ever used that would stick perfectly to the kind of surface you're dealing with would be rubber sandblast mask. Too expensive for a project like this though,m and brings with it a whole new set of headaches.
If no to the first question, my response would be they are welcome to Kilz the pattern and repaint the ceiling a darker gray, and then after they pay you for what you have already done, they can pay you to do it again.
If yes to both questions, then the answer would be the same, and you'd be charging for the repainting of the base coat as well.
If yes to the first and no to the second, I'd make a small sample of proposed new color, get approval, and then repaint the ceiling at my own expense, charging them only for doing it once.
The only stencil material I've ever used that would stick perfectly to the kind of surface you're dealing with would be rubber sandblast mask. Too expensive for a project like this though,m and brings with it a whole new set of headaches.
Yeah, I looked into a product by Kapco for sand masking and the price was, uh...10 yds for $195? wow. In the future I'm gonna try some Ultra-Cut II which I hear is pretty good. I mean, oramask 813 is flawless on smooth surfaces, even a little bump every now and then it can handle. But that ceiling is like iguana skin. Again, my lack of experience, but in the future I would have sanded the ceiling to a baby-smoothness and charged as such. hindsight!
The base color was agreed upon before starting. you can see another portion of the ceiling in the topmost pic, but the client changed his mind when he saw the ceiling lit by the interior lighting. This is part of a major renovation in an existing building so power apparently wasn't available to the lighting in this room until a couple weeks ago. I still explained that I should have been notified of the updated base color needed well before I had stenciled the other quarter of the ceiling.
This could be chalked up to "Client is being a baby, re-paint and re-do." but I have worked with them in the past and they are consistent clients so I am trying to work with them in this case. The idea is to change the color of the existing ceiling, approve that color, and use that process or an approximation of the background color to paint the base tone before continuing with anymore stencil work. They have asked for this project to be completed in the next three weeks since they are planning to open sometime in March. I would not be able to KILZ, re-paint, re-cut and weed and re-stencil the entire existing ceiling, and continue with the other two ceilings, which lucky for me, are just curved and not a crazy vaulted shape.
I am pretty sure Michelangelo would not be hurried up on the Sistine Chapel ceiling. They will have to wait until it's redone if they want it redone. Trying to varnish over it to get a darker color is a lousy bandaid. Once it's done, it could be 50 years or more before it's redone. Better to delay reopening for a week or two than have a crap job done that nobody likes and have to completely repaint it in the near future, disrupting operations again.
They are the ones who called the halt at the 11th hour and are making it necessary to completely rethink the project. The real world doesn't work like the TV makeover in 5 days shows, and those shows never do something intricate and difficult like this.
They are the ones who called the halt at the 11th hour and are making it necessary to completely rethink the project. The real world doesn't work like the TV makeover in 5 days shows, and those shows never do something intricate and difficult like this.
Pewter0000
Graphic Design | Production
Regarding your question about vinyl that can go over the curved/bumpy surface, you're looking for a cast vinyl as opposed to a calendared. It's a little more costly, but will take the bumps and lumps a lot better. Using a heat gun might also help get it into those ridges - but then you're going to have to remove it afterward, so that might make it a bit difficult.
I might suggest Avery supercast (I think they're in the 900 or 950 series). It's cheaper than 3M but it's a vehicle vinyl so it will be thick enough to manipulate but conformable enough for the bumpies.
I don't envy this job - it looks like a huge challenge!
I might suggest Avery supercast (I think they're in the 900 or 950 series). It's cheaper than 3M but it's a vehicle vinyl so it will be thick enough to manipulate but conformable enough for the bumpies.
I don't envy this job - it looks like a huge challenge!
CanuckSigns
Active Member
Attachments
I had some success for once, using a diluted Jacquard brand ink, Pinata being the product name, diluted with their extender to a 50:50 ratio and applied with overlapping strokes. I have started this and the client is happy with it, so I guess it's ended well.
here's what it looks like:
So I guess they saved some money and I saved the headache of having to repaint that again (other than the alcohol fume headache from the ink)
P.S. I always use proper PPE when working with VOC's...Especially in an enclosed space.
Pewter0000
Graphic Design | Production
Glad to hear they're happy, at least!