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White foils

Discussion in 'Gerber' started by peewee the pinstriper, Jan 2, 2010.

  1. peewee the pinstriper

    peewee the pinstriper Member

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    What foil has a thicker printed profile?.. meaning if you could see a cross cut of the printed image would Duracoat Opaque white be thicker than Gerber White? The issue I'm having is when overprinting (extending a color past the edge of the white) the white shows through the the overprinted color.. and looks like a fractured/ragged hair line in white showing the through the black out line. right now I'm using Duracoat Opaque White /red overprint / Black outline on Transparent material the white is so thick the black foil cant bridge over the edge.. Picture 1683 (Large).jpg
     
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  2. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    What you have there is a color to color resolution error. To correct it you need to have the red spreading further under the black and the black set to overprint. The error is the result of a design flaw in the Gerber feeding mechanism that results in slight variations in registration depending on how much foil remains in the cartridge.

    I use Duracoat Opaque White all the time. It is roughly the same density as Gerber Spot White and not as dense as Gerber Floodcoat White. It is not the cause of your problem which is best resolved in modifying your setup to provide more tolerance for errors such as this.
     
  3. peewee the pinstriper

    peewee the pinstriper Member

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    Right now the white goes down, the red extends past it a tiny bit, then the black overprints both colors and extends past the red... And it still shows should I increase the black outline and increase the distance between them?
     
  4. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    Presumably you have the black outline at the thickness desired. Therefore, you should increase the red so it extends further UNDER the black.

    If you notice in your pic, all the white that shows is on one side. That is a clear indication that the choke and spread of the black to red is not sufficient to handle the tolerance error. At the same time, you would be changing the look of the graphic if you increase the black, because it is on top. The only correct way to correct it is to have more red covered by the black by extending the red.
     
  5. peewee the pinstriper

    peewee the pinstriper Member

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    here's the layout... this is the actual layout just zoomed in... I think I even tried to double hit the Black to no avail.. the white foils is old.. would that make a differance? I was going to order Gerber White at twice the cost Monday.. but if you say that won't make an impact I won't I burned up 20' of material and every combination under the sun but the white always comes through as a ragged edge.. Thanks Fred! z.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2010
  6. Browner

    Browner Member

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    Swap the red and the white.
     
  7. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    The one thing we haven't covered is the actual numbers to overcome the color to color issues. In my experience, the margin for error is +or- .020". Therefore, I set my chokes and spreads for .040" when dimensions allow. Anything less and the outcome of the job is in doubt.

    So my question to you is have you enough overlap to cover the tolerance of the equipment?

    Browner also makes a good point but I think not absolutely correct. So I pose the next questions to you:

    1. Using the 1234 dialog, check to see the layer order in your setup. Is it white, then red, then black? If not, change the order because that is what it must be.

    2. Again, using the 1234 dialog, is the white set to normal and the red and the black set to either overlap or overprint? If they are not, then you are knocking out the underlying print instead of overprinting it. This always leaves a hairline unprinted around the impression ... but it is usually uniform and surrounds rather than only being on one side.

    3. Is the black outline combined? If not then the inner line is not going to print in the correct position. Set you mouse on the inner black line and turn your preview on and off. Does the black preview in the correct position of at some point further out towards the edge?
     
  8. peewee the pinstriper

    peewee the pinstriper Member

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    yes the print order is white, then red overprint, then black overprint.. the layer order is that way. The hairline goes around the whole image.. I just zoomed in there for referance.. and yes the black is combined.. at my wits end :( thank so far for the help.. been struggling with this for hours and a lot of test prints..
     
  9. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    Send the saved PLT file to me at the email address in my signature. Also indicate which version of Omega you are using.
     
  10. peewee the pinstriper

    peewee the pinstriper Member

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    will do.. thanks Fred! :)
     
  11. signage

    signage Major Contributor

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    PeeWee you may want to watch this video and try the new program with 3.0 called reg fixer!
     
  12. peewee the pinstriper

    peewee the pinstriper Member

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    Thanks, but I don't think that's the issue.. it's the Black overprint having the White bleed through the edge of the graphic around the perimiter of the white
     
  13. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    I went over your file and test printed both your file and a revised version I made with corrections to issues detailed below. Your basic setup was correct but one or more of the issues below may be causing your problem. I am emailing you back the revised file for you to test.

    The test prints of both your file and my revised file ran satisfactorily. There was a slightly rougher appearance with your file due to the higher heat settings you were using.

    Vinyl Assignment

    Your vinyl assignment was for Gerber 220 White although your intent is to print it on an unspecified clear vinyl. It won't matter all of the time, but it is good practice to assign the closest vinyl to what you will be using for the job as it may effect the firing settings for each foil. I reassigned your vinyl to Imagecast Clear.

    Close Tolerances

    The nature of your artwork and the size you are printing at may be part of the problem. The outline is unusual in that the inner line is radically different from the outer line. It has lots of thick and think spots. In the thick spots, you are working with about .015" sizes. In the thin spots, there are even some overlapping vectors which Omega may not handle as one might expect. Recall that I mentioned earlier the tolerance of an Edge is about + or - .020". The point is that this job at this size is problematic. I have corrected the overlapping vectors and also done some selective adjusting of the widths between vectors in the overlapping areas.

    Overprint Versus Overlap

    The black and the red were both set to overprint. This setting, as opposed to overlap, turns up the heat of the printhead. The result is a harder, rougher result. This may be one of the primary contributors to the results you are getting. I have set the vectors to overlap rather than overprint.

    When in Doubt - Slow Down

    Since you are using an Edge II and I had no problems running it on my Edge LE, I must ask what speed and resolution settings you are running the job at? In a tight tolerance job, slowing down to Edge I speeds and using the 300 x 300 DPI settings will likely improve your results since there are nothing but solid colors in the job anyway.

    As I said though, your unmodified file ran fine for me except for some minor roughness which I attribute to your overprint settings. So I think the likely reasons for your difficulty are that it is a tight tolerance job and you are running at too hot a temperature setting because you are using overprint rather than overlap. In addition, if you are running at higher than Edge I speeds and resolution, this would exaggerate the problem.

    I am sending you the revised file by email. Let us know how things work out with my various suggestions.
     
  14. GB2

    GB2 Very Active Member

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    Thank you Fred and PeeWee for following through and providing a truly professional, educational thread!
     
  15. peewee the pinstriper

    peewee the pinstriper Member

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    Thank you Fred.. I'm still new to the Edge game.. and just recently started venturing down the Overprint road.. thanks for explaining the differances in overlap and overprint.. I'm eager to try this since i have really burned up about 20' of material.. dumb .. probably.. but I want to figure it out and not have someone just do it and not explain.. you did both and I am very grateful for that! I'll test it now..
     
  16. peewee the pinstriper

    peewee the pinstriper Member

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    Here's what i did.. I printed Freds help and it didn't turn out for me.. I'm printing on Oracal 651 clear and he recommends getting some fresh 2mil cast to try.. BUT.. i also changed things around like Chris suggested AND broadened the outline like Fred suggested.. the outcome so far is that a little handy work with a fine point Sharpy or paintpen will do the trick before laminating these prints.. I'm out of white foil but will get some Tuesday to try the cast.. Thank you folks and thanks Signs 101 for being here :) this thread is bookmarked for the great input..
     
  17. GB2

    GB2 Very Active Member

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    Peewee, I'm just wondering how fresh are the foils you are using? If they are old, that could possibly be a contributing factor.
     
  18. peewee the pinstriper

    peewee the pinstriper Member

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    ... don't laugh... the white is 4+ years old it came with used edge.. my new foil will be here Tuesday ... I'm just gonna crap if that's it..! But it's part of the learning curve I guess. I let you folks know for sure..
     
  19. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    Just a side note ... we have had problems with the combination of Oracal 651 and 751 and Duracoat black foils - both spot and process. You really need to print the job on a different brand of vinyl as a test. It doesn't matter if it's clear for testing purposes.
     
  20. peewee the pinstriper

    peewee the pinstriper Member

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    One thing I found that when I printed on 751 I had problems with Fisheyes in my prints... So I went back to 651 and those problems went away..
     
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