Who wins in the white ink battle for digital printing?

[Flame]

Alright, so here goes. I'm trying to plan ahead and budget in a new printer. We have a Valuejet that works awesome for regular digital printing, but I'm turning down requests constantly for specialty materials. Most significantly the ability to print on clear. With a few requests for chrome and other stuff in there as well, but clear is something that just many people really want.

So, what do you think? I'd use this as a secondary printer ONLY for specialty products, so speed isn't a huge concern. I'd like the ability to print atleast 19" wide so the Gerber Edge is out, and of course like everyone else...would like to keep my costs down. So I haven't printer shopped in a while...what do we have?

Did I read right that the lil BN20 prints white?

DC3 - too outdated?

DC4 - best option?

other ideas?

 

[Flame]

Welllll. Guess no input?

 

[FrankW]

DC5, thermal transfer is still the best solution for printing white.

 

[rubo]

Welllll. Guess no input?

http://www.directcolorsystems.com might have something you're looking for.

 

[artofacks1]

DC5, thermal transfer is still the best solution for printing white.

I know he said no Gerber, but the dc5 better than a Gerber ? I was staying away from the dc5 cus I heard a lot bad all over. Well it was dc4

 

[FrankW]

I know he said no Gerber, but the dc5 better than a Gerber ? I was staying away from the dc5 cus I heard a lot bad all over. Well it was dc4

The DC5 is a DC4 with a few modifications, the basic engine is the same.

The biggest problem of the DC are owners who have bought it with wrong expectations. When buying the machine after checking seriously what it can do for you or not, the DC4 have advantages in comparison to the Edge, for example cheaper consumables, depending on the models up to 8 colours at a time with automatic change, more usable media and more.

 

[rjssigns]

We sub out anything with white ink. IMO it's not worth the headache and expense especially if you don't run the white ink daily. Friends of ours likened getting their white ink capable printer to buying a boat. 2 best days of ownership were the day it arrived and the day it got sold...

 

[MikeD]

The DC printers are incredible, but it's difficult (for me so far,) to overcome the pass overlap each 4"
The best solvent white I've used was the DCS 1324 flatbed, but the print area is smaller than you want at 13"x24".
Mimaki and Roland whites are not opaque, and the metallic can be removed from the print with light thumb pressure.
UV is the only ink I've worked with that is opaque and in most instances does not require more than two passes, but I've never worked with Latex or any other ink.
Good Luck!

 

[CanuckSigns]

The Summa DC4 fills all your needs, except being cheap. i've seen it in action at one of the tradeshows and it's a very cool machine! it can print white as well as chrome and a bunch of other options that ink based printers could never do, it does have drawbacks such as speed, but if you have a solvent machine already i think it would be fine.

Contact Summa and they should send you out a sample kit of printed items and arrange a demo at you closest dealer.

 

[Flame]

Speed is not a huge concern. We can manage a decent workflow with our current equipment, but I have the opportunity to bid on some very nice sized jobs if I was able to just do white or chrome ink in house (aka print on clear). Good idea on samples... will have to check those out. I keep hearing about this 4" overlap thing so want to see in person. Is it really that bad?

 

[petepaz]

like already said not impressed with the solvent white. we have xc-540 w/ white configuration and it works ok but since we got our LEJ640-uv printer we haven't used the solvent white. basically just runs the cartridges through the cleaning cycles .(actually thinking about changing it back to all color configuration).
my opinion would be you want uv or thermal both have +'s and -'s. go see demos on both and then decide.

 

[artofacks1]

The DC5 is a DC4 with a few modifications, the basic engine is the same.

The biggest problem of the DC are owners who have bought it with wrong expectations. When buying the machine after checking seriously what it can do for you or not, the DC4 have advantages in comparison to the Edge, for example cheaper consumables, depending on the models up to 8 colours at a time with automatic change, more usable media and more.

the 4" band over pass is straight up what is keeping me away from the dc5sx. Plus I emailed summa a specific 2 questions and no answer . 1. Can I print on convex reverse print material and 2. Can I print, take out material, laminate or adhesive and reindeer material to cut.

The 2nd one I was ok , well I will just get another cutter as I was gonna get edge and envision anyways. But not knowing the material that I need to use will work for sure is hard pill to swallow.

Plus, no email reply , customer service is a must.

 

[MikeD]

artofacks1,
You should try calling Summa Tech Support. They have real live (and knowledgeable) techs answering the phones within a few rings, or you can leave a message with your name and #; they always call back soon. I'm using a DC4SX for a specialty material and a specialty product that requires a small decal, so my layouts are never more than 3.86". I have tried large designs on regular vinyl just to experiment, and there was an overlap. However, Printer Control gives access to many variables that influence the overlap- I didn't really have the need to work through it for my application, but I do think end users can diminish the overlap or even design in a way that masks it.
Give Summa a call- they will be glad to help.

I typically run process CMYK and the results are great. The white is pretty opaque and the metallic silver and gold look good as well. For a "whiter" white you can do two passes of white, and the resin transfers in perfect registration. Since the media doesn't move between foils, the color to color registration is superior to our FX printers, and the print to cut is better as well for of the same reason.
Good Luck!

Miked

 

[artofacks1]

I've heard Summa support and customer service is top notch, are you sure you're sending emails to the right place?

There is a merchant member here from Summa who I'm sure could give you all the information you need.

they started out very attentive, sent me samples even. In the sample package they stated of I had a custom design of my own I wanted tested to contact them. I also did some test on their prints. Put them on helmets and banged the helmets, wash the helmet with solvent... Ect..

Just had a couple more things I needed answers to and was ready to buy if it all came out right and made sense.

One thing I liked about the Gms guys that were selling the edge and also sent me products. Was their attention to detail. They actually sent me print examples that were on materials I want to use and that helped.

It's hard to ignore the dc5sx though. However, I have about another week to make the purchase and in the meantime will continue to read everything summa dc5 and Gerber edge fx.

 

[Biker Scout]

Having a little bit of experience with the Edge many years ago, and quite a bit with a DC3... I'd go with the DC5 as my next purchase in a heartbeat. Here's why: Print Resolution, multi-pass color without user intervention, Plotter built-in, Summa's awesome tracking, and the big one: INNOVATION

When was the last time Gerber made any real technological improvements to their machine? They've been relying on legacy tech for what seems ages, and yet their prices remain ridiculously high even still. Gerber Edge makes a much better used purchase, since all the internals can easily be refreshed. I mean, they want like $26k to kit out their 12" wide printer with plotter. For that kind of money you can get the Summa 54" DC5, and still have money for oodles of start-up materials.

Gerber Scientific has been struggling to keep their graphics division afloat for the last 8 or so years anyway. Only through their weird sproketed materials offering along with the sales of a few machines here and there, mostly word of mouth, and their foil revenue. But they failed to keep their flatbed UV printer on the market, yet it had plenty of revolutionary innovations and ideas. And they secretly started dropping support for the existing Ion customers. Their routers are awesome, but I think that's slightly different division than their graphics line. Summa on the other hand just released the DC5, which means they aren't resting on their laurels and continue to improve their product line, while keeping the price point the same, even after all these years. Impressive.

 

[artofacks1]

Thanks Mike for your feedback!

artofacks1,
You should try calling Summa Tech Support. They have real live (and knowledgeable) techs answering the phones within a few rings, or you can leave a message with your name and #; they always call back soon. I'm using a DC4SX for a specialty material and a specialty product that requires a small decal, so my layouts are never more than 3.86". I have tried large designs on regular vinyl just to experiment, and there was an overlap. However, Printer Control gives access to many variables that influence the overlap- I didn't really have the need to work through it for my application, but I do think end users can diminish the overlap or even design in a way that masks it.
Give Summa a call- they will be glad to help.

I typically run process CMYK and the results are great. The white is pretty opaque and the metallic silver and gold look good as well. For a "whiter" white you can do two passes of white, and the resin transfers in perfect registration. Since the media doesn't move between foils, the color to color registration is superior to our FX printers, and the print to cut is better as well for of the same reason.
Good Luck!

Miked

 

[JonMiller]

Isn't the Summa a friction fed setup? So surely the 'summa awesome tracking' cannot be as accurate as the Gerber sprocket fed?
I had a demo of the Edge FX recently and the 'only having one foil at a time' thing really wasn't that bad. It literally takes a few seconds to change the foil.
I too am interested in seeing the reported 'banding' issues of the Summa.
Big positive is the extra width of the Summa.
I wouldn't really count the print&cut of the Summa a positive as you can only do one thing at once whereas with the Edge you could be cutting one set while printing another job.
I am yet to have a decent demonstration of the software for either of these and that is a big deal for me, how intuitive etc it is getting graphics in Illustrator converted to the thermal printers rip and how well it works. Are they able to convert transparency effects in to vectorized gradients etc in order to use the spot colours or does this all have to be done prior to sending to the rip.
I am going to get one or the other any time now but need to be sure which is the right choice. (yet to have a demo of the DC5 but am going to a printing show soon)

 

[MikeD]

Isn't the Summa a friction fed setup? So surely the 'summa awesome tracking' cannot be as accurate as the Gerber sprocket fed?
I had a demo of the Edge FX recently and the 'only having one foil at a time' thing really wasn't that bad. It literally takes a few seconds to change the foil.
I too am interested in seeing the reported 'banding' issues of the Summa.
Big positive is the extra width of the Summa.
I wouldn't really count the print&cut of the Summa a positive as you can only do one thing at once whereas with the Edge you could be cutting one set while printing another job.
I am yet to have a decent demonstration of the software for either of these and that is a big deal for me, how intuitive etc it is getting graphics in Illustrator converted to the thermal printers rip and how well it works. Are they able to convert transparency effects in to vectorized gradients etc in order to use the spot colours or does this all have to be done prior to sending to the rip.
I am going to get one or the other any time now but need to be sure which is the right choice. (yet to have a demo of the DC5 but am going to a printing show soon)

If you run a multi-color job on non-gerber material through an Edge, the sprocket holes will elongate and the second color will not line up perfectly. With the Gerber equipment, the print has to move from one machine to another in order to cut. The summa will print the job and then cut it; then it will process the next job you've prepared while your eating lunch. The media does not move at all between colors- that's why the color registration is superior. Friction feed opens up the doors to any thermal receptive media- it doesn't have to come directly from Gerber at a premium price, and you don't have to sacrifice job quality by using Edge-Ready materials that have a "close match" to GSP's punch.
The Summa gives the end user much greater access to altering or creating Firing Tables specific to your media whereas Gerber does not.

That is just a brief explanation of some of the differences. Having said that, we run lots of Gerber equipment AND Summa equipment. They both have unique benefits, and more in line with the OP's original query, they both print white.

 

[JonMiller]

Thanks for the input. I guess it would be advisable to use media specific for the Edge then
Yup, in regards to printing white I am sure either of those will make you more than happy. I currently run a CJV30 with white and silver and while for some people the results are are acceptable, it cannot compare to the white opacity of the thermal printer. Even when overprinting my white with density raised it wouldn't compare to the thermal printer.
During the demo of the Edge they laid white on to fluorescent and it stayed white, unlike my eco solvent white would

 

[artofacks1]

It's just hard to get passed the binding on the dc5 or 4 series. Hopefully you find a good printer that prints white that will not give you these problems. Highly interested in knowing what you decide and how it plays out. Keep us updated!
.

 

[JonMiller]

Do you mean banding? If so, yes, this is something I wish to see at the show. Edge 300mm ribbon compared to Summa 100mm as far as I know. Although the summa can be adjusted similar to how you would media feed correction on an inkjet??
Apologies, slightly off of original subject again. (although handy perhaps for others who stumble across it with similar questions)

 

[XtremeXccessories]

If you plan to only use the Summa for decals using spot colors I would highly recommend it. The pass line on spot colors is barely noticeable (usually). But if you plan on doing large prints with process colors I would steer clear. It is incredibly hard to get a good, multi-pass, process print. And it's not like "once I have this dialled in I'll be good for all prints". There is a setting that works decent for a lot of process prints (Double Dot 35 is what Summa recommends for most), but you may have to do several test prints before getting an image to look decent (change shape and frequency: Round 50, Double Dot 35-50, Rhomboid 25, Ellipse 40, etc..). And you can't just cancel a print on the DC4, you have to reset the machine. And it's not just a quick on off, it will (slowly) check every cassette bay to see what's loaded, check clamps, check pinch rollers...

They do have a decent Illustrator and DRAW plugin that makes it pretty simple to send to RIP software (RIP software isn't great). One click in DRAW will export selection or entire file to eps then automatically import it to Color Control.

I'm not sure what the consumables run on the Edge, but they're pricey on the Summa. $159 for a process ribbon that will cover 369 square feet = $.43 per square foot x 4 colors = $1.72 per square foot for a 4 color process image. And if there's a single pixel of whatever color needed then it will use the ribbon for the entire width of the material. So if you have 54" material loaded (50.2 printable area) and you have a 1mmx1mm dot of Bright Blue somewhere in there then you'll waste about 1.4 square feet (4" x 50.2") of ribbon to print that 1mmx1mm dot.

Check this website for some more info (including plenty of posts about banding issues): http://www.digital-graphica.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=b523981af5a8dc00222b6fc31caf006c